again, I really don't mean to slight the track (I think it's really awesome honestly) but I think a big reason why one situation is considered "chiptune" and the other isn't is based around the word itself -- it's obviously not just an aesthetic, because if it were, then we'd be totally fine with producers using chip sounds in tracks everywhere. "methodology" seems like a better word for it, but if that's the case then, assuming that the methodology involves voluntarily limiting yourself to obsolete technology, a lot of music falls under it. it's probably something like a methodology applied toward a specific aesthetic or something weird like that

and yeah this veers dangerously close to "what IS chiptune" but this kind of scene-wide self-evaluation is what allows growth -- I see the progression of dubstep as dubstep -> brostep -> trap -> future bass, and as (hugely) simplistic that model might be, I REALLY like where it ended up! and I think the huge stigma attached to brostep and its artists really pushed everyone within the genre to expand it to where skrillex is now making tropical beach pop (which has its own stigma (which creates its own evolution)). NOT TO MENTION outside artists coming in and very blatantly ripping off specific aesthetic references for their own artistic ends like purity ring, who made really deep, textured synthy bass music and threw trap beats underneath which created its own offshoot

*nods*

@SketchMan3: Just my two cents: speaking only for myself, I've found that I work better and am more creative under limitations. Give me a blank canvas with every color and brush imaginable and I freeze up. Give me a 64x64 pixel square and a limited color palette, and for some reason ideas flow easier.

SketchMan3 wrote:

I don't think it's possible to seperate end result from method in most art., unfortunately. Is running a photograph through a photoshop oil paint filter comparable to a Goya if it looks nearly identical to something he would have painted?.

if you can use photoshop well enough that it actually looks identical to a goya painting, then i'd think most people would see both as being roughly equivalent, yes
and it would take far more than just one photoshop filter to come close to that, someone would likely have to make their own custom filter or know a lot about the way photoshop works to combine numerous existing filters, layering techniques, level and color adjustments, etc to get the end result...
but that's just me speaking as someone who has used photoshop professionally for over a decade

Nope, it doesn't, in and of itself. It depends more on /how/ they use Photoshop. If anything, I'd probably be more amazed at seeing someone reproduce Goya's brush strokes from scratch using Adobe Photoshop than I would be at seeing someone use paint and canvas to produce the same thing.

Without violating a certain amount of personal confidence there may have been, Chibi herself was worried that people would find Kyunstep pretentious. She was surprised by the positive reaction and the rest is history. It basically shut the Blip Fest forever.

When we wonder about software and hardware used, it is the same as guitarists checking out each others' kit, to a fault. I can learn Protracker and Octamed and collect all kinds of Amiga kit until my wife throws me out, but the music I make will still sounds like me. No matter how much we learn about technique, styles, and genres, we can't help sounding like ourselves, but that's a good thing.

I recently asked Nile Rodgers on Twitter if his most famous Stratocaster had a tremolo to see if he blocked, bolted, or floated it, and I realized ten seconds after I sent it just what a useless question that is for me: Nile's sound is almost entirely from his hands, which are too different from mine to dream of copying, so I need different equipment to sound like him. Nile answered me anyway, turns out it's a hardtail... my point being that he freely gives away all his "secrets" because nobody has a chance in hell of copying him.

I don't think it's possible to seperate end result from method in most art., unfortunately. Is running a photograph through a photoshop oil paint filter comparable to a Goya if it looks nearly identical to something he would have painted?.

if you can use photoshop well enough that it actually looks identical to a goya painting, then i'd think most people would see both as being roughly equivalent, yes
and it would take far more than just one photoshop filter to come close to that, someone would likely have to make their own custom filter or know a lot about the way photoshop works to combine numerous existing filters, layering techniques, level and color adjustments, etc to get the end result...
but that's just me speaking as someone who has used photoshop professionally for over a decade
does someone using photoshop somehow reduce the value of whatever someone produces in your mind? that's weird

I think that may be more related to the stigma attached to the mainstream music industry in general. And I doubt those producers would call what they put out "chipmusic". It's pop. If they don't call it that, why should we?

As for anam'n'guchi and etc.. who's to say some powerpunkers /didn't/ say such things? It's happened before in the past with other types of music. Look at nu metal. pop punk. Gospel music, even. They're all still a thing, and they're still developing, despite purists crying boohoo.

in the end, just do what you want. Dont let arbitrary labelers get you down. If you want to call it chipmusic, then do so. If not, don,t. It's more than an aesthetic. More than a methodology. It transcends those things. It doesn't have to be massively appealing to be chipmusic. It doesn't have to even be good...

Edit: to tho topic.. ive found myself not enjoying gameboy stuff as much as i used to. I must be getting old. My ears canbarely  handle it ;-;

i think you missed my point.. what i was getting at is that its the results that matter, not the methods used so dwelling on if something is or isn't "pure chipmusic" is entirely irrelevant in that context

Ah, I gotcha. I guess it depends on what you mean by "results". If two guitarists, a banjo and three howler monkeys record a mix that sounds identical to a 4 channel ahx tune...

What I was kinda trying to say is that it's the end result that is usually being judged by "purists" first, and then knowledge about the method used to produce said result serves as validation for their opinions.

I guess I just don't see listeners dwelling on if it's "pure" or not as much as I see artists self-imposing those shackles onto themselves for whatever reason. Sure, a few listeners may mention it, or even ask about it, (in the same way a guitarist fan might want to know what pedals and amp and mics are being used on stage) but it's not like it's an obsessive end-all be-all fixation on purity that they're imposing on the artists, at least as far as I know.

I don't think it's possible to seperate end result from method in most art., unfortunately. Is running a photograph through a photoshop oil paint filter comparable to a Goya if it looks nearly identical to something he would have painted?

Imo, if the artist says it's chipmusic that's good enough for me. Pure or not, chipmusic is chipmusic.

I seriously doubt that all those people who loved kyunstep but hate dubstep magically started listening to and enjoying skrillex and dubstep artists and gameboy EDMstep, etc, that they had previously hated, and all lived happily ever-after. (Perhaps some did, and to them I say congrats on expanding your horizons and learning to see things from another point of view). Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I understand, people dislike dubstep because it lacks elements that would allow them to enjoy it, not so much because it's down-tempo and wubbulous. Chibi-tech created a song that infused the brostep with elements that they can enjoy, thus unlocking a world where they were able to partake in the joy that regular dubstep fans enjoy.

I probably should have made this more clear, but I only referenced skrillex as a stand in for brostep in general

what I was trying to figure out was why this track in particular somehow made brostep (an aesthetic with a pretty big stigma attached to it here AND elsewhere) palatable for an audience that very often defines itself in opposition to the mainstream, brostep included. in this case, it's fine if the aesthetic referenced isn't everyone's cup of tea, SO LONG AS it's made on an NES

yet the opposite situation, in which a mainstream producer uses chiptune sounds in an otherwise modern-sounding track is pretty universally frowned upon by the community. honestly, both situations are pandering -- one of them just happens to pander to us in the way that we like, so it's excused

again, I really don't mean to slight the track (I think it's really awesome honestly) but I think a big reason why one situation is considered "chiptune" and the other isn't is based around the word itself -- it's obviously not just an aesthetic, because if it were, then we'd be totally fine with producers using chip sounds in tracks everywhere. "methodology" seems like a better word for it, but if that's the case then, assuming that the methodology involves voluntarily limiting yourself to obsolete technology, a lot of music falls under it. it's probably something like a methodology applied toward a specific aesthetic or something weird like that

and yeah this veers dangerously close to "what IS chiptune" but this kind of scene-wide self-evaluation is what allows growth -- I see the progression of dubstep as dubstep -> brostep -> trap -> future bass, and as (hugely) simplistic that model might be, I REALLY like where it ended up! and I think the huge stigma attached to brostep and its artists really pushed everyone within the genre to expand it to where skrillex is now making tropical beach pop (which has its own stigma (which creates its own evolution)). NOT TO MENTION outside artists coming in and very blatantly ripping off specific aesthetic references for their own artistic ends like purity ring, who made really deep, textured synthy bass music and threw trap beats underneath which created its own offshoot

but when I see members of the community talking about how edm producers using chip sounds is bad, while I see where the sentiment comes from, I do think that chiptune risks stagnancy if that kind of production is universally scorned -- I kind of see it as an opportunity for a collaborative affair where we can bring the aesthetic into cool new places. like if anamanaguchi made their power-punk stuff and other power-punk bands were like "yo fuck these guys they're just cribbing our style for VIDEO GAMES" they wouldn't have gotten anywhere

going back to the question, I wouldn't say I "enjoy" chiptune as much as I want to listen to it after I've jumped forward in time 10 years? a lot of the "big" artists that seemingly "graduated" from chiptune are doing really interesting things, and it'll be cool to see what happens to the scene after the video game associations are removed and the methodology stays

yeah I meant purity in a more general sense of what fits under the umbrella of "chiptune" and what doesn't, I only used myself as an example because I've been doin' INTROSPECTION YO

like an0va I also got really into different genres of music and wanted to start incorporating them into my own style, but I also found that gameboy-only (LSDJ was my main tool) stuff really didn't do it for me as far as composition went. so I bit the bullet and ended up writing things in ableton and using other synths and things (<3 my microbrute) to make it

but I ended up in this weird area where I don't feel like I'm "chiptune" anymore, and coming back on this forum to hear people talking about "pure" chiptune and how it's sacrilegious to pander to audiences with square waves kind of confirmed it for me

one of the bigger turning points for me happened when chibi-tech released that moe moe kyunstep song -- it was amazing and hugely expanded the possibility space for what the NES could do soundwise, but it also sounded exactly like a skrillex song? so to hear people say "man dubstep is the WORST" followed by "holy shit this song is AMAZING" when it's literally skrillex on an NES was weird for me

and this isn't meant as a slight toward chibi-tech or the song, it was just weird to see that double standard. a skrillex song made on an NES is chiptune, but an NES + other instruments that skrillex might use isn't chiptune? I personally would have liked the definition to expand to include the second scenario, but it didn't seem to happen, so that's kind of where I fell off of listening to "pure" chiptune

the actual solution is for us not to care though so whoops!

The thing about Moe Moe Kyunstep is that it /doesn't/ sound exactly like a skrillex song. "Literally skrillex on an NES" would be... literally skrillex producing a song on an NES. Moe Moe Kyunstep isn't even virtually skrillex on an NES. It executes its melodic and harmonic and thematic elements in a way that skrillex never could. The tune in and of itself is excellent, regardless of the things it has in common with a skrillex song. For me, at least. Moe Moe Kyunstep is literally a chibi-tech chiptune song that happens to be teh brostep.

I seriously doubt that all those people who loved kyunstep but hate dubstep magically started listening to and enjoying skrillex and dubstep artists and gameboy EDMstep, etc, that they had previously hated, and all lived happily ever-after. (Perhaps some did, and to them I say congrats on expanding your horizons and learning to see things from another point of view). Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I understand, people dislike dubstep because it lacks elements that would allow them to enjoy it, not so much because it's down-tempo and wubbulous. Chibi-tech created a song that infused the brostep with elements that they can enjoy, thus unlocking a world where they were able to partake in the joy that regular dubstep fans enjoy.

Not only did kyunstep expand the possibilities of what the NES could do soundwise, but, for me, it also expanded my perception of the possibilities of what growlstep could do melodically, harmonically, rhythmically (it had some really cool drum n bass/breakbeat elements that I haven't heard in your typical skrillstep) and thematically.

Also, if your usage of square waves is to pander to an audience and your artistic self-expression are mutually exclusive, then at least a few people are going to feel that and turn away from it. Any form of pandering is going to be frowned upon by /somebody/.

People enjoy what sounds good to them. It's not their fault that the artists they've heard being "impure" don't execute their impurity in a way that sounds pleasing to them. 

As someone who loves all kinds of chiptune, be it solo or with an orchestra, One of the things that I, at least, enjoy about "pure" chiptune vs. "impure" chiptune is that pure chiptune can do a lot of creative things with the sound design of the chiptune element that a lot of impurists often /can't/ do, due to the fact that their choice of unchiply instrumentation wouldn't mix very well with those chiptune elements. They'd be tripping all over each other and fighting for attention and getting mutually lost in the muddled mix (as I've heard often enough, even with some of the popular "big hitters" in the "scene"). My beloved chiptune elements that would normally be taking center-stage get pushed to the back, playing second fiddle and being limited in what they can do (square wave leads or maybe some arps. Or if you /really/ want to be edgy, throw in a 25% pulse wave or a SID PWM lead ) Maybe an artist might throw in a 4 measure bridge of gameboy solo here or there to try and jam the more creative sounds into the song somewhere, but then they get stripped away again, or buried in the mix.

There's a certain way of caressing the soundchip that /usually/ doesn't happen when it's having to share space with other instrumentation. Kinda like having a 1-on-1 tutoring session vs. a group study.

but I ended up in this weird area where I don't feel like I'm "chiptune" anymore, and coming back on this forum to hear people talking about "pure" chiptune and how it's sacrilegious to pander to audiences with square waves kind of confirmed it for me

i'd say those people talking about that are the vocal minority in this case... most people who've been in this scene for any length of time consider any argument about purity to be silly and really missing the point of making music as an artistic statement

If something is produced on chiptune hardware, but doesn't sound like chiptune and you don't tell anyone what you made it on, is it still chiptune?

If a GameBoy bleeps in an empty forest, is that chiptune?

.. but it comes close to a question I've thought about often:

If something is produced on chiptune hardware, but doesn't sound like chiptune and you don't tell anyone what you made it on, is it still chiptune?

don't get me wrong (I'm not sure if that was directed at me), that kind of stuff has its place, and is certainly good for dancing at a gig.. but I just get a bit burned out when it gets into happy hardcore territory that sometimes happens at bigger chip gigs. I would *love* to hear someone bust out some Surgeon/Black Dog/Richie Hawtin style dark brooding techno, but made with chip instruments, at a headliner slot at a big chip festival.. but currently audiences generally just want to hear fast bright arps and BPMs over 160 at that time slot—again, nothing wrong with that whatsoever, and I certainly enjoy it, but it would be nice to have the contrast!

it wasn't directed at you! in fact what you're talking about is something I'm trying to parse through these days w/r/t my relationship with chiptune

like an0va I also got really into different genres of music and wanted to start incorporating them into my own style, but I also found that gameboy-only (LSDJ was my main tool) stuff really didn't do it for me as far as composition went. so I bit the bullet and ended up writing things in ableton and using other synths and things (<3 my microbrute) to make it

but I ended up in this weird area where I don't feel like I'm "chiptune" anymore, and coming back on this forum to hear people talking about "pure" chiptune and how it's sacrilegious to pander to audiences with square waves kind of confirmed it for me

one of the bigger turning points for me happened when chibi-tech released that moe moe kyunstep song -- it was amazing and hugely expanded the possibility space for what the NES could do soundwise, but it also sounded exactly like a skrillex song? so to hear people say "man dubstep is the WORST" followed by "holy shit this song is AMAZING" when it's literally skrillex on an NES was weird for me

and this isn't meant as a slight toward chibi-tech or the song, it was just weird to see that double standard. a skrillex song made on an NES is chiptune, but an NES + other instruments that skrillex might use isn't chiptune? I personally would have liked the definition to expand to include the second scenario, but it didn't seem to happen, so that's kind of where I fell off of listening to "pure" chiptune

the actual solution is for us not to care though so whoops!