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	<title type="html"><![CDATA[ChipMusic.org - Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
	<link rel="self" href="https://chipmusic.org:80/forums/feed/atom/topic/7670/"/>
	<updated>2012-07-26T17:51:03Z</updated>
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	<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/topic/7670/why-does-the-nes-have-a-tri-wave-rather-than-saw-wave/</id>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122268/#p122268"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Patents" target="_blank">Here</a> is a list of known NES-related patents. As you can see, they all are from later period than Famicom development stage. The &#039;Electronic sound synthesizer&#039; is for FDS, I can&#039;t recognize what is the &#039;Digital sound source apparatus and external memory cartridge used therefor&#039; for - not for 2A03 certainly.</p><p>There could be other patents, though. Maybe they are Ricohs rather than Nintendo.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Shiru]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/Shiru</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-26T17:51:03Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122268/#p122268</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122266/#p122266"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>maybe its listed on the patent?&nbsp; they have a lot of that info.</p><p>the patents for the game boy player are online, not sure why the ones from this console wouldn&#039;t be.</p><p>nintendo has a shit ton of patents available to view...&nbsp; just takes a bit of searching through the US Patent database.&nbsp; (as they&#039;re headquartered in Redmond, WA in the US, and took out US Patents, all this info should be centralized in the US Patent office).</p><p>they&#039;ve recently been cited in court for &#039;patent trolling&#039; too, can&#039;t remember what the legal term is.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[kitsch]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/kitsch</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-26T17:39:25Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122266/#p122266</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122264/#p122264"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>&#039;Nintendo&#039; is a very abstract person to ask, the company by itself didn&#039;t actually designed the hardware, so they don&#039;t know the answer. A few japanese engineer guys did it like 30 years ago, that&#039;s who should be asked, if it is even possible to even find them now.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Shiru]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/Shiru</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-26T17:23:05Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122264/#p122264</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122263/#p122263"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>The hardware sweep was especially suited for sound effects. The envelopes and length counters were evidently designed with both music and sound effects in mind, though in the end since you could get a lot more versatility (for both music and sound) by ignoring them and building software macros, most games did so.</p><p>boomlinde, something that just occurred to me that&#039;s kind of interesting design-wise different between SID and 2A03: 2A03&#039;s oscillators are all clock dividers, i.e. you have some counter that puts out a pulse every N clocks, which then drives the waveform generator. The SID being an accumulator adds N to the accumulator on every clock, and the high bits are (almost) directly used as the waveform output. The 2A03 units all have another output stage. This is visible to the user by whether the frequency registers increase or decrease with pitch; some Famicom expansions accumulate: FDS, N163, VRC7, others divide: MMC5, VRC6, 5B. The ones that accumulate all happen to use wavetables, incidentally.</p><p>Quietust has a few visual 2A03 overlays on his <a href="http://www.qmtpro.com/~nes/chipimages/" target="_blank">page</a>, this one diagrams all the chip regions he&#039;s determined the function of: <a href="http://www.qmtpro.com/~nes/chipimages/rp2a03g_regions.png" target="_blank">http://www.qmtpro.com/~nes/chipimages/r &#133; egions.png</a></p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[rainwarrior]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/rainwarrior</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-26T17:20:37Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122263/#p122263</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122258/#p122258"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Why doesn&#039;t someone just ask Nintendo?</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[TSC]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/TSC</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-26T17:07:41Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122258/#p122258</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122257/#p122257"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>i think as it was already mentioned a saw sounds a lot like a 12.5% pulse wave in terms of the timbre (aka shit) and a triangle sounds really good and there is no real difference in implementation so why not use a triangle</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[ant1]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/ant1</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-26T17:06:11Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122257/#p122257</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122256/#p122256"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>so then, why a triangle for sound fx instead of saw?</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[electricloverecords]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/electricloverecords</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-26T17:02:28Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122256/#p122256</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122254/#p122254"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;m sure sound effects were the main concern of designers of 2A03. As for music, they maybe were expecting to do short jingles and simple background loops, but certainly not something that Konami or Sunsoft brought much later.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Shiru]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/Shiru</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-26T16:59:07Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122254/#p122254</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122249/#p122249"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>electricloverecords wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>it also wasn&#039;t all about music right?&nbsp; i think they had to use the chips to do sound effects for the games also.</p></blockquote></div><p>at the exact same time.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[danimal cannon]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/danimal+cannon</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-26T16:40:42Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122249/#p122249</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122247/#p122247"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>it also wasn&#039;t all about music right?&nbsp; i think they had to use the chips to do sound effects for the games also.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[electricloverecords]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/electricloverecords</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-26T16:39:08Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122247/#p122247</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122183/#p122183"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;m beginning to suspect it&#039;s a matter of how we put it rather than much of an actual disagreement <img src="https://chipmusic.org/forums/img/smilies/smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="smile" />. I agree that whatever the cost of a wavetable, a triangle must have been an obvious choice over a sine for reasons that you already mentioned. Though, if they&#039;d wanted a reasonable sine, I think they would have gone for something more complex than sixteen step 4 bit wavetable. Say, 6 or 7 bit output, double the period increment rate, and a 32 step half-sine LUT fed by the output of the existing triangle circuitry.</p><p>I didn&#039;t know about the length counter LUT. Seems like the designers went crazy over some very specific use cases.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[boomlinde]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/boomlinde</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-26T08:42:27Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122183/#p122183</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122062/#p122062"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>No, not really. I don&#039;t really have any desire to argue what words mean. I only wanted to clarify what I was trying to say, which was that the decision not to use sine was probably not a cost saving measure, and you seem to at least partly agree with this, don&#039;t you? I don&#039;t think I will get anything out of trying to design/describe an actual sine generator circuit, so please excuse me if I leave off details of that at this point. I&#039;m sure you could do it as well as I can. I was a little confused by the words you were using, but I think we know what each-other means by now.</p><p>There are a number of things on the chip that could have been cut with some foresight, I think. The envelope and length counters in particular don&#039;t offer much, and the majority of games ignore them. The length counter in particular has a rather large and useless lookup table attached to it. The triangle has its own redundant &quot;linear counter&quot; in addition to the length counter; not sure what that was about.</p><p>Another weird thing is that the periodic noise mode was apparently not present in the original run of Famicom units. Not sure what the story is on that one; maybe there was a problem that disabled it by accident that they fixed in subsequent runs?</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[rainwarrior]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/rainwarrior</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-25T22:28:15Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122062/#p122062</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122053/#p122053"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I never said it would be &quot;very&quot; significant (if it&#039;s a matter of a 4 bit inverter vs a tiny adressable LUT), but I think that the added complexity vs. what you gain in sound quality made it an easy choice for the chip designers even if they&#039;d preferred to have a sine wave. Chip surface was a scarcity, and since the APU shared die with the CPU and other circuitry, I assume the designers were instructed to cut corners when possible.</p><p>I don&#039;t see what significant simplifications you could apply to a 16*4 bit sine wave table. With a sine wave you could get away with storing a quarter of it (as they did in OPL type chips), but then I think you&#039;d need two more inverters to reassemble it. What other kinds of simplifications do you have in mind? What is a generic ROM?</p><p>If you disagree on the use of the word ROM (which is exactly what it is), can you at least suggest an alternative?</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[boomlinde]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/boomlinde</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-25T21:55:27Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122053/#p122053</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122046/#p122046"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>No, the complexity of a LUT for a 4-bit sine would not be very significant, and I think it&#039;s weird to call it ROM because its small size and specific purpose allows a great deal of simplifications vs a generic &quot;ROM&quot;, but I think we&#039;re off topic. The point was that I think a sine was a viable option, electronics wise, but wouldn&#039;t have been as useful as a triangle anyway.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[rainwarrior]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/rainwarrior</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-25T20:53:23Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122046/#p122046</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Why does the NES have a Tri wave rather than saw wave]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122042/#p122042"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Because it&#039;s the most &quot;bass similar&quot; waveform that could be achieved with the targeted hardware by Nintendo.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Delek]]></name>
				<uri>https://chipmusic.org/Delek</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2012-07-25T20:02:31Z</updated>
			<id>https://chipmusic.org/forums/post/122042/#p122042</id>
		</entry>
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