sleepytimejesse
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Youngstown, OH
n00bstar wrote:

Also.... and this is where I started to mentally masturbate too much with this... I was assuming I was in G Major with a borrowed chord. So for my middle eight I went to the relative minor, Em, and now I can't make it resolve back to a G, it wants to resolve on the Em every damn time no matter what twisted fucked up path I take through the chords.

ARGH.

To bring it back to G, use a D7 chord.

vargero
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Florianópolis-SC, Brasil

A good site for that kind of stuff: http://www.dan-nilsson.se/scalefinder/

n00bstar
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Montreal, Canada
fearofdark wrote:

My best understanding is that this is an example of referencing parallel key signatures. The G major and C major chords imply G major, but the flattened 3rd (the Bb major chord) is borrowed from the natural/melodic minor key of G. I've seen this progression with D major tagged on the end too; the dominant chord from the G major scale. So.. yeah, G major with a borrowed chord from that parallel minor seems to be an answer.

Yeah that's also what I've come up with. It's mostly G Major but I borrow a chord elsewhere.

nickmaynard wrote:

G BLUES ROCK SCALE

Since the blues scales is just a minor pentatonic with an added note, there's technically no B in it for the G major chord. And if I use a major pentatonic, there's no A#. That was the original questions basically smile

sleepytimejesse wrote:

If G is home (tonic), you're going G (I), to what is actually Bb (bIII), and C (IV). This doesn't fall into a specific key other than to say it's G Major but with a flat major 3.

Yeah that's what I thought it was.. I just wasn't sure if there actually was something better that could actually include all those those notes neatly.

sleepytimejesse wrote:

To bring it back to G, use a D7 chord.

I'm a huge fan of the dominant 7th too, but in this particular song it doesn't fit at all. I mean sure it'll create the tension for a resolve on G but the flavour of the 7th itself is too dense for the simplicity of the rest.

chunter wrote:

In any case, there's no need to overthink it.

The whole point was to overthink it smile I'm not having difficulties writing the song or anything, I was just curious if people could perhaps fit it all into one nifty scale.

chunter
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Brunswick, GA USA
n00bstar wrote:
nickmaynard wrote:

G BLUES ROCK SCALE

Since the blues scales is just a minor pentatonic with an added note, there's technically no B in it for the G major chord. And if I use a major pentatonic, there's no A#. That was the original questions basically smile

In The Blues, this is not a bug, it is a feature. A skillfully played "blues scale" has almost all the chromatics as leading tones, here G-G#-A-Bb-B-C-C#-D-Eb-E-F are fair game if you lead the notes correctly.

Nick's answer is the one we would've given in harmony class; like a circle or a triangle having 360 degrees in geometry class, it is correct in a "law-of-nature" way.

n00bstar wrote:
chunter wrote:

In any case, there's no need to overthink it.

The whole point was to overthink it smile I'm not having difficulties writing the song or anything, I was just curious if people could perhaps fit it all into one nifty scale.

Feel free to ask more questions like this, but don't forget to use your ears too.

Last edited by chunter (Mar 29, 2013 3:37 am)

n00bstar
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Montreal, Canada

Aye, don't worry I know my stuff and I trust my ears too. 20 years of blues guitar playing here smile In fact I trust my ears a whole lot more than I trust theory. That's probably why I end up borrowing chords elsewhere instead of keeping key hehe. The intention was just to mentally masturbate this with other people who have some theory in their baggage.

I know what you mean by any note is fair game in blues, but non scale notes are mostly passing chromatisms and pretty much only used in melodies, very rarely in the composition of the chords themselves that tend to revolve around simple major/minor/dom7th. And to make things even more convoluted, the blues scale tends to fit pretty much perfectly over both minor and major progressions.

I guess when I play my guitar I don't even ask these questions since it's all second nature to me by now. But this particular song I was composing on the piano where I am much more theoritical since it's not my main instrument and I tend to fall out of my usual 'patterns' of playing.

It's fun to have these conversations though.. it's sorely lacking on this forum.. yknow, music stuff, not just backlights and carts big_smile

chunter
Offline
Brunswick, GA USA

The other day I was considering doing a YouTube video analysis of Around the World by Daft Punk. Beat me to it (or explain the analysis) if you dare.

Hint: What does the bass do?

n00bstar
Offline
Montreal, Canada

It's playing notes? Heh. Can't beat you to something I don't understand. What are you trying to analyze on it?

defPREMIUM
Offline
nickmaynard wrote:

G BLUES ROCK SCALE

yea this^
it isn't anywhere near as complicated as a bunch of you are making it. g pentatonic-ish jawnt.

godinpants
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hardcore, Australia

Music is only a theory, it's never been proven.

rainwarrior
Offline
Toronto, Canada

Scales and keys aren't the same thing, and there's no natural need for a chord progression to fit a particular known scale. For the most part, scales are things that result from common harmonic/melodic practices. At least, how they came to be. Obviously you can construct any scale you want and play with it to see what kind of sounds it makes, but there's no need to pick a particular scale, a-priori.

This kind of progression would usually imply that the C major is the tonic key, I think, but it could be otherwise due to emphasis. Someone mentioned Freebird, and that's a good thing to look at for comparison, though Freebird would actually start with G minor rather than major. Blues playing often makes a lot of expression out of bending/stepping chromatically from the B-flat to natural anyway, so sometimes whether it's G minor or major mighty be a little bit moot. The Freebird solo, in this key, is strongly centred around the pentatonic notes G B-flat C D F, with a bit of A and E in there, and sometimes B-flat becomes B as I was saying.

There's other things you could do with this progression completely unrelated to blues. Also, don't be afraid to stick  one half of a chord progression in a completely different scale than the other half. You can get a lot of mileage out of trying to stay in a diatonic scale that contains all the notes in the current chord, and changing to other diatonic scales as minimally as needed to contain the chord as you go along.

DUNGEONMASTER
Offline
kansas city
n00bstar wrote:

Aye, don't worry I know my stuff and I trust my ears too. 20 years of blues guitar playing here smile In fact I trust my ears a whole lot more than I trust theory. That's probably why I end up borrowing chords elsewhere instead of keeping key hehe. The intention was just to mentally masturbate this with other people who have some theory in their baggage.

I know what you mean by any note is fair game in blues, but non scale notes are mostly passing chromatisms and pretty much only used in melodies, very rarely in the composition of the chords themselves that tend to revolve around simple major/minor/dom7th. And to make things even more convoluted, the blues scale tends to fit pretty much perfectly over both minor and major progressions.

I guess when I play my guitar I don't even ask these questions since it's all second nature to me by now. But this particular song I was composing on the piano where I am much more theoritical since it's not my main instrument and I tend to fall out of my usual 'patterns' of playing.

It's fun to have these conversations though.. it's sorely lacking on this forum.. yknow, music stuff, not just backlights and carts big_smile

if its like that, i might bring out the fifths, and play myxolydian. cos really, that b doesnt carry through.
and those three thirds kinda make the start of a b minor scale. but then i wouldnt want to resolve to a g at all.

chunter
Offline
Brunswick, GA USA
n00bstar wrote:

It's playing notes? Heh. Can't beat you to something I don't understand. What are you trying to analyze on it?

The phrases create a harmonic structure as they are brought in and out...

You can easily geek out and put a different scale on each chord but the result will sound forced. Imagine putting diminished scales on transition chords in bop jazz.

wandering genie
Offline
Paso del Rey, Argentina

We can re-think the A# as Bb. The Bb may imply a C11 without the root, so, in the end you´ll have G Bb(C11) and C. So the G blues scale or the G minor pentatonic will do the work.  Yesterday, after reading the topic, I jammed a little with my son over this progression and it works great.

Also, I think you may try the option of using different scales for the different chords too, to achieve a different mood

I agree with Chunter in the fact that using our own ears is a healthy thing to do. (Though of course, music theory is a helpful tool too)

And I agree with n00bstar, these kind of topics are desirable as are a learning experience for all of us.

Last edited by wandering genie (Mar 29, 2013 1:32 pm)

sleepytimejesse
Offline
Youngstown, OH
n00bstar wrote:
sleepytimejesse wrote:

To bring it back to G, use a D7 chord.

I'm a huge fan of the dominant 7th too, but in this particular song it doesn't fit at all. I mean sure it'll create the tension for a resolve on G but the flavour of the 7th itself is too dense for the simplicity of the rest.

Ah. Well you can leave out the 7, of course. The things that make a V work are the third (in D, F#) going to the tonic note (G) by half step. The seventh adds contrast (In D7, C) by resolving by half step the opposite way (the B in G).

This is all rudimentary but I figured I'd mention it to recap for anyone reading and also to iterate that chords are a succession of notes moving together, nothing more. We describe them as these chord name chunks for ease of use, but you can always work linearly. If your melody goes to where you want, say to the note G, find what else you can do to bring a line to another note in the G chord, like B or D. Pretty soon you might have an amalgam of lines that fall into your desired tonal region through something more inventive than a D7.

This might be hard in LSDJ or something though, if you're relying on an arp instrument in one of the squares.

Also, this is why going to E minor works, both G and B are in that too. Like you said, sometimes it's easy to get stuck in one or the other because of this.

One more edit: D or D7 also leads to G minor just fine, thanks to the aformentioned voice leading. But the 7 resolving downwards by whole step makes that much more a powerful arrival.

Last edited by sleepytimejesse (Mar 29, 2013 3:35 pm)

sleepytimejesse
Offline
Youngstown, OH
wandering genie wrote:

And I agree with n00bstar, these kind of topics are desirable as are a learning experience for all of us.

Anytime I see one of these topics, I get excited. My four years of university level theory and composition courses should at least do something for someone.

n00bstar
Offline
Montreal, Canada

I often like to imply the dom7th rather than play it out from a single chordable instrument. Like leave the underlying chord major but use things like the lead/solo, hell even the bass sometimes, to finish on the appropriate note to form a dom7th. Or if I'm to include it in the chord itself, I like to bring it into the chord at the last possible moment and go from the major to the 7th like so many old rock n rollers did.

Or yknow.. just go all out and use it on every damn chord smile 1-4-5 progressions all in 7ths? Fuck yeah! On the guitar I like to leave out the fifth (because of the dead-easy three strings movable shape) and just play root, third and seventh. The third still gives it that distinctive major sound, and the fifth can be given to another instrument entirely or just used for fills here and there.

We need a music section on this forum. smile

chunter wrote:

The phrases create a harmonic structure as they are brought in and out...

Ah! You mean how two single-note lines come together to imply the chords? I'm a big fan of that. In my opinion that's a big part of what separates a song from a doodle: if you can reduce the essence of it to be played on a single acoustic guitar then you probably have something.

I was a fan of Daft Punk since before the release of Homework, my cousin had the vinyl for Rock n Roll / Rollin n Scratchin. If I'm not mistaken, one of them was classically trained on the piano, and the other still uses his guitar to compose the tracks. A bit like the semi-copycat Justice that compose most of their song on piano and bass before switching every notes for samples.

If I could go back in time though, I'd travel to these guys and tell them "oi.. guys, ease up on the sidechaining, cause in five years every god damn dance act is gonna hop on that particular bandwagon and ruin dynamics forever"