danimal cannon
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buffalo, NY

Hey guys, after playing a lot of shows I've noticed that A LOT of venues have difficulty with a stereo signal.  I've gotten strange live sound problems over and over again, from missing channels to phase inverted channels.  Is a DI box really necessary?  It seems like a lot of problems seem to happen when they take 2 signals and run them into 2 separate DI boxes.    Sometimes the problems are just in the monitors.  Can anyone relate/have advice? 

You would think sending out a left and right would be easy stuff, but sound engineers struggle constantly. 

Also when playing through systems with killer subs, it's not a bad idea to reduce your bass a little.  I've had a few shows where the bass has drowned out the rest of the music, because god forbid the FOH guy notice and EQ accordingly.

danimal cannon
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buffalo, NY

Also on the DI issue, I think lots of guys accidentally push the highpass switch, or the pad button on one of them.  I've had a few shows where they even told me: "you're not sending me any bass"

So I have to say:  "do you have a highpass switch on"
"do you have your subs turned on, I see giant subs under the stage" (I literally had to say that last show, and was right)

jefftheworld
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Toronto, Ontario, Canada

I actually have both mono and stereo setups that I'll use. Sometimes I'll have to use a mono bed track or remove all panning in order to work with a venue that simply can't manage to get stereo working.

In general I find that it's the Rock venues that are the worst as they're used to running mostly just mics and DIs off of amps rather than the sort of setup that is common to electronic music (danimal, I know that you use an iPhone for your guitar so I'm sort of lumping into the "weird setup" category). Dance venues, goth clubs and any place that more commonly deals with electronic music usually have far fewer issues.

The best solution that I've found is to come prepared with a mono setup just in case. It sucks to lose intended stereo effects or separation but it's better than having phasing issues that totally ruin a song. Just practice putting all your stuff together in a mono system and make sure you can hear everything that's meant to be heard.

Last edited by jefftheworld (Oct 8, 2013 3:18 am)

danimal cannon
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buffalo, NY

the iphone guitar rig is mono, and it's going into my own mixer, it's inconsequential.  It's just the stereoness of the gameboys that throws them.

jefftheworld
Offline
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
danimal cannon wrote:

the iphone guitar rig is mono, and it's going into my own mixer, it's inconsequential.  It's just the stereoness of the gameboys that throws them.

Yeah, for me it's my C64 that is easy enough to deal with as it's always mono but some of my DOS/Amiga/Game Boy/PSP/etc tracks get really fucked when forced mono, so I eventually had to rewrite mono versions of certain tracks.

thebitman
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You'd be surprised at how many bars and stuff still use mono systems. My take on this is having my mixer be mono-friendly for the rare chance I get to play live. Have songs that you cleanse of panning and know will sound good without it. Smart EQing and volume control are your friend.

And if phasing is an issue with DI boxes, it is most likely due to the house wiring. Often when you plug in to two DI boxes they are meant for things like two seperate DJs, microphones, or guitar amps to pump signal out to. When you throw a stereo signal into each box, they can sonically phase each other out like Dan mentioned. I've had this happen with a DJ set a while back, a lot of my mids were flat out gone, no one bothered to tell me all night either.

If you rock a stereo setup, I think it's good to make sure you have a means of forcing mono on it so the sound guys don't have to. Buy some cables, maybe a passive mono mixer or build your own and put it in an altoids can. BE NICE TO THE SOUND GUY AND TALK TO HIM. He can be the deal that makes or breaks a set, so make his job easy. Some of them are great at their job, others you are better off without them. Talk to them before you setup, you might give them time to figure out how to channel your sound out in stereo or how to help you set up in a way that won't cause technical issues.

tl;dr make sure you can rock a mono setup, always talk to the soundguys before you setup,  or at least before you play

SketchMan3
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NC in the US of America

in b4 "Use NES instead"

is it unreasonable for you to have your gameboy plugged into a stereo amp and have the sound-guy mic up the amp to simplify the process of going mono?

Last edited by SketchMan3 (Oct 8, 2013 5:12 am)

danimal cannon
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buffalo, NY

I would just send my L-R to different channels before I do that.  I guess the point is I shouldn't HAVE to.  If the sound guy can play a CD or MP3 through the aux jack they should be able to handle what I'm giving them.  I fact, next time I'm just going to run a headphone out to the iPod jack (not really)

BR1GHT PR1MATE
Offline
BOSTON

yeahhhh ive had so many venue stereo issues that i rarely use it anymore with music ill be playing live hmm

although im sympathetic to their plight, sadly a large portion of sound guys aren't remotely worth the money youre forced to pay them.

Fudgers
Offline
Indiana

i've pretty much play in mono exclusively for live sets; the inevitable problems just aren't worth it. plus, stereo tends to sound kinda crappy for 2/3's of the house tongue

an0va
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Dino showed me that in LSDJ, you can also B+Left on all four channels on the Song Screen, now essentially making your song into a live Mono edit

Last edited by an0va (Oct 8, 2013 3:03 pm)

tempsoundsolutions
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TSSBAY01

shouldnt have to run in mono? if a club's system is mono, its mono. there is no 'shouldnt have to' when stereo isnt an option. unfortunately for you this is how most clubs are. its like expecting itunes to run an .ogg.

the more you play out, the more you will see that you are making things difficult on the soundguy by expecting a stereo setup or that they can handle it. i cant totally speak for him, but im sure if you asked, dino would say that being a soundguy is one of the most thankless jobs you could have. why make things more difficult for the person doing the sound who is most likely getting paid a shit wage, who is in control of your sound and put them in a position where they cant do their job adequately? i personally wouldnt punish the guy who is just trying to do his job by throwing him a curveball like that when theres not much of a benefit to running stereo in the first place. that doesnt mean you shouldnt ask them questions and ask for more of whatever in your monitor or to turn up this or that, it means you're expecting too much of something that isnt necessarily the way they do things, and its going to be different whereever you go.

when you hear live music, there isnt really a point of reference for the people in the crowd that they can experience a stereo image. more often than not when youre in the crowd, you're standing on one side of the stage or the other. there can be dead spots in a room, the club could have already tried it, they might not be set up wattagewise to do it. whatever the reason, and more often than not, the soundguy, and the performer on the stage are really the only ones in the club that can benefit from something being in stereo, because you and the soundguy are the only ones in the club that are squarely between the left and the right channels. this is how it works unless you are playing in a place with a ridiculous soundsystem, or a small sound system. your best bet would be to talk to the soundguys when you get there and ask them if they run in stereo, and if they say no, to run your stuff in mono.

herr_prof
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Unsubscribe

The last three posts are totally right. Ran tons of shows that became lots of hurt feelings when they found out the pa was mono.

jefftheworld
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Toronto, Ontario, Canada
tempsoundsolutions wrote:

shouldnt have to run in mono? if a club's system is mono, its mono. there is no 'shouldnt have to' when stereo isnt an option. unfortunately for you this is how most clubs are. its like expecting itunes to run an .ogg.

To be fair, I think what we're talking about here are venues that HAVE stereo systems but which have phasing issues nonetheless. I find it quite a common error. You'll have a stereo source going into a stereo system but the audio engineer has put you into two mono channels and hasn't panned those two channels.

spacetownsavior
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San Diego, CA

just to add to everyone else's points -- at most bars, the sound system is an afterthought, built so that they can have 80s cover bands entertain people while they drink. it sucks, but then again, so do most bars' economic outlooks, so there's not much anyone can do about it. same thing with the sound guys: sometimes you'll get an absolute jewel of a sound engineer, but quite a few are hired simply because they know how to plug everything in without blowing it up.

I've played small-ish conventions where the reason one of the musicians was only coming out of one speaker was because the "sound guy" didn't see that the mono/stereo switch on the mixer was set to mono. I figure the DI issue is also the same in most cases -- it's just "the way it works," and the complex setups that people bring are rare enough for them to not have to look up a more efficient way to do it. there are enough variables to deal with when playing any given show that running stereo is the least of your worries, anyway.

there's probably a discussion to be had about compensating for shitty sound systems (no sub, single PA, monitors being bleaaah), and I figure it happens enough with our setups that there has to be SOMETHING applicable across the board.

Last edited by spacetownsavior (Oct 8, 2013 11:08 pm)

tempsoundsolutions
Offline
TSSBAY01

its not always a matter of the pa being an afterthought though, i've played spots that werent the best in terms of upkeep to the bar itself, but had more than adequate soundsystems. with the price of pro audio gear being as low as it is in this economy, you do see more places having decent gear these days, and if you dont inquire about that, then theres no reason to complain, especially if you are just looking for a show. it really depends on the spot and another big factor that ties into the equipment is how often they run shows, whether they see enough revenue to justify spending money on new house equipment, the size of the venue, and here we go down the rabbit hole.

you've got whoever was setting up the pa system in the club and whether or not they thought to use separate amps for l/r channels, or amps that do stereo, thats the dealbreaker of the equation. then you have the issue of competent soundguys who are able to roll with the punches and go to extra lengths to help you sort out the sound issues, which is why i suggest always talking to the soundguy when you first get to the gig. of course, the biggest issue next to whether stereo is even a possibility is whether or not you punish the soundguy during setup/soundcheck and how willing he is to work with you. its my feelings that if you are playing in a place that is bigger than ~100-150 capacity or so, you are shortchanging the audience by doing stuff in stereo.