untilzero
Offline
chicago

I've been searching for awhile for other people with similar issues using MIDINES (1.1.0) and came up with only a few instances (and really no solutions).  Also maybe this shit is like 5 years ago by now, but I could never find any of the stuff Batsly Adams put together (cause believe me I'd have much rather used Family MIDI, I don't really care about the DMC samples), so if NES is what I wanna use, MIDINES was about the only OTB option I knew/know of.

Anyhow so yea, STUCK FUCKING NOTES holy hell.  I sequence out a simple tune with alternating A minor / F Minor arpeggio's (a la Simon's Quest / Dracula's Castle), maybe like 120 bpm quarter notes to start, and fucking hell does this thing have stuck notes.  First off I have to mute / unmute the Pulse tracks on the sequencer before they'll even start, but letting the sequence run and end naturally still ends up with hanging notes on most if not all channels in the end.  It's maddening.

I've got a DMG / ArduinoBoy setup that handles anything I throw at it like a champ, we're talking like 64th notes at 200+ bpm with no choking, so WTF am I doing wrong with MIDINES?  I'd have assumed the NES could handle just as much if not more...

I've tried a number of things too to mitigate this, swapping out different MIDI connections in the chain (down to straight up sequencer->NES and nothing else), turning off certain MIDI messages being transmitted from my sequencer (down to basically nothing but note on/off), different controller keyboards, different power adapters, even different NES units (one toaster, one top loader) and to no avail.  Certain combinations made the MIDINES choke pretty bad on even just playing the notes, but I can deal with that issue, it's the HANGING notes that are driving me insane.  Every time a tune stops or I mute/unmute or something I have to either reset the NES or change the MIDI channel offset on the MIDINES (cause it doesn't respond to All Notes Off CCs either, sigh).

I mean, maybe this is way old news and I'm just late to the game here, but does / did anyone else have these issues? And if so, how did you mitigate them (if at all)?  I've seen a ton of YouTube demos of this thing rocking like a champ, so I'm kind of hoping I can fix this shit somehow, any help would be greatly appreciated (or you know, just GPL Family MIDI already *please* haha).

(FYI - this is not a 72-pin issue or cleaning issue, I'm a pro at cleaning carts/pins/connectors, and the pin connector on my toaster is brand new)

Relevant setup:

NES Toaster (w/ pro audio mod, original power supply)
MIDINES 1.1.0
Roland MC-500mkii Sequencer
Roland A500pro Keyboard Controller
Roland MM-4 Thru Box (though direct connections are just as bad)

The One Electronic
Offline
Detroit

I had the same issue.  Mine would hang on notes, skip notes, ignore CC automations, and what have you.   I ended up just selling it off ;/

TylerBarnes
Offline
Dallas, Texas

Mine would only stick when I would interrupt the normal flow of things. For example if I hit stop on my daw as it's triggering a new note, things will stick. Other than that, things are fine when I use it in Ableton.

untilzero
Offline
chicago
The One Electronic wrote:

I had the same issue.  Mine would hang on notes, skip notes, ignore CC automations, and what have you.   I ended up just selling it off ;/

Bummer, seems like most people I've found having the same issue did the same thing hmm

TylerBarnes wrote:

Mine would only stick when I would interrupt the normal flow of things. For example if I hit stop on my daw as it's triggering a new note, things will stick. Other than that, things are fine when I use it in Ableton.

Yea, I've also noticed a lot of people who posted demos mentioned using Ableton or some other software sequencer.  The irony of a DIY hack built to allow use of the original OTB hardware being better compatible with new age soft sequencers than with hardware sequencers from the same era does not go unnoticed though, heh.  I'm not necessarily against the software route, I just don't use it (if I did I'd have likely just found some NES / C64 / Every-other-chip emulator 'plug-in' or something and just used that instead).


Honestly, I'm still holding out hope that someone around here may have actually managed to correct this issue as opposed to just not ever having it or just giving up altogether. 

I did open up the cart too, noticing that only two of the MIDI cable wires are actually connected to the board (neither is ground/shield either).  Curious, because on wayfar the only real 'solution' addressing this issue is a 'grounding issue / bad ac adaptor' or something.  I'm not an engineer, but it did make me wonder why then the MIDI ground wasn't connected to the clearly labelled ground on the MIDINES pcb in the cart...

Last edited by untilzero (Feb 23, 2014 5:44 pm)

e.s.c.
Offline
IL, US

i'm guessing you've tried a different NES? i used to have issues with midines in one of my decks that sound similar.. other people have had issues with different thrus, but if youve also tried direct sequencer to midines, that seems unlikely...
one thing that might be worth checking would be the solder joints where the midi cable connects to the midines cart's board, 
since i live in chicago too, i could help you test a few things if you want (got rid of my midines, but still have the better of my NES decks and a piggy->midi setup that was working well with midines for years)

TSC
Offline
Milwaukee, WI

I experienced stuck notes as well. I forgot I had them every time I owned a MIDINES, and sold the MIDINES every time I remembered.

I would usually have to adjust note length as a workaround. If that didn't work I would usually have to turn the channel off/on after. every. single. note.

lain2097
Offline
Montreal, Canada

Contrary to the above posts, I've never encountered any stuck notes with my MIDINES. In fact I find it to have the best response of any synth I own. No issues sending tonnes of notes at 160+bpm and CC messages from Logic. Oh I also use a AMT-8. I don't bother changing its midi receive channels, default 1,2,3,4,5.

One thing I do notice about the MIDINES in particular of its midi implementation is that it has note-on priority - which is nifty for fast arps / sequences. Sounds like you could have a midi loop or something like that?

Last edited by lain2097 (Feb 22, 2014 11:17 pm)

PROTODOME
Offline
UK

I've found it only hangs when there's a long sequence of overlapping notes. If you make sure there's a small break between each note, no hang.

Or, rather than break up every note, phrase passages and arps in smaller chunks.

edit: oh, right, you've said there's no overlap. badtimes.

Last edited by PROTODOME (Feb 22, 2014 11:26 pm)

TylerBarnes
Offline
Dallas, Texas
untilzero wrote:

I did open up the cart too, noticing that only two of the MIDI cable wires are actually connected to the board (neither is ground/shield either).  Curious, because on wayfar the only real 'solution' addressing this issue is a 'grounding issue / bad ac adaptor' or something.  I'm not an engineer, but it did make me wonder why then the MIDI ground wasn't connected to the clearly labelled ground on the MIDINES pcb in the cart...

The midi cable is isolated from the circuit using an optoisolator. Only the pins 4 and 5 are required. grounding it might have undesired results.

also what did your pcb look like? I have two different revisions of the midines and my earlier one is far better at recovering from sticky notes than the later revision.

Does it look like this...

or like this.....


The second one, labeled "Squeedo the flash cart", is the older version and the easiest to work with, at least in MY experience. The good thing about this cart is that when I hit the soft reset on the NES, all of the volume, duty cycle, and other such CC will will remain intact. this means when I get a stuck note I quickly hit reset without stopping the midi sequence, and the note gets back on track. All the volume and CC stuff is remembered by the NES. The later version, labeled "Midines 2 R1", on the other hand, does not do this. it will forget all that info and on top of that it wont even fix the stuck notes as described above.

Considering you said that you'd seen a actual GND connection on the PCB, I'm assuming you have the Squeedo version. This, I believe, is good news for you. Try tapping the reset whenever you stick a note. It'll interrupt sound for a second but it can be somewhat covered up with like a Kaoss pad loop effect during the reset or tapping it in time with the beat.

Last edited by TylerBarnes (Feb 23, 2014 4:34 am)

untilzero
Offline
chicago

Okay, since you're all awesome and giving a shit I'll try to respond to everyone quickly...

e.s.c. wrote:

i'm guessing you've tried a different NES?

Yup, I have a few, they all perform the same.  Top loader and toasters alike, though I will put a pin in your suggestion about trying a known working NES if all else fails (thanks!).

lain2097 wrote:

Contrary to the above posts, I've never encountered any stuck notes with my MIDINES. In fact I find it to have the best response of any synth I own.

I sooo want this to be the case, but alas...  my DMG/ArduinoBoy works wonders, if ONLY the MIDINES were doing the same for me!  Checked out that AMT-8 you mentioned, I don't use soft sequencers but I did use a couple of different midi thru boxes (an MM-4 by Roland, and a MOTU express) and both had the same issue, unfortunately...

lain2097 wrote:

Sounds like you could have a midi loop or something like that?

I don't know what that is...?

PROTODOME wrote:

I've found it only hangs when there's a long sequence of overlapping notes..

True for sure but no overlap on this end, plenty of clock pulses in between notes (figured this out ages ago with DMG setup).

TylerBarnes wrote:

also what did your pcb look like? I have two different revisions of the midines and my earlier one is far better at recovering from sticky notes than the later revision [...] Considering you said that you'd seen a actual GND connection on the PCB, I'm assuming you have the Squeedo version..

Yup, I've definitely got the latter (Squeedo flash cart) version you posted.  Same connections, good to know the ground isn't necessary!  Reset (or even a quick channel offset change up and down again) does indeed fix the issue, but man... all I keep thinking is how badass my DMG is in comparison, and how that shouldn't be the case haha.

-

Thanks for all of your input! I messed around a bit more tonight and found that just pushing out raw note on/note offs via MIDI-OX on my computer didn't seem to ever make anything hang, as hard as I tried.  I even pumped a ton of raw MIDI files ripped straight out of my favorite NES games and they all seemed to work (despite choking or missed notes here and there)...  so I guess it must be my sequencer and controller... which really bites.

On top of that, I noticed that (while the hanging notes are awful and ubiquitous no matter what) my sequencer does end up being able to play extremely fast / complex compositions every, say, 20 tries (haha)... as in, if i notice notes start choking (clicking / missing) and I quickly hit stop/rewind/start again or muting/unmuting tracks a ton... it'll *eventually* play everything flawlessly... which leads me to wonder (after having messed around with MIDI-OX just now) whether or not my sequencers ticks per quarter note rate may have something to do with this issue... like perhaps the VBlank reads on the MIDINES cart just get out of sync in some oddball way with the signals sent from my sequencer (though it seems like that would be fixed just altering tempo... or something... I dunno... ugh).

Is this crazy?  I scarcely know what I'm talking about here so please chime in if I'm stupidly off base.

TylerBarnes
Offline
Dallas, Texas

I've also wondered about ppqn of my daw making things stick. Like, for arguments sake, lets say that midines is capable of reading 24ppqn. I know that ableton is 48ppqn. I always thought what if my note off messages where on some tick that was somewhere on the 48ppqn range and for all the midiness is concerned it was somewere halfway between a valid spot to have a midi message. it might just ignore it. But hey, like you, I don't know much of anything about midi, and I've actually read somewhere that midi messages are all 24ppqn. So I'm guessing no matter how large the pulse count is of your daw, the output across midi will always be 24. All this is merely speculation though.

Last edited by TylerBarnes (Feb 23, 2014 1:04 pm)

untilzero
Offline
chicago

Yea, I still have no clue.  I've been pushing the MIDINES pretty hard using MIDI-OX this morning, seems to be rocking like a little champ, but that just kind of pisses me off even more, considering the last thing I'm going to swap out of my setup is my sequencer, which seems like it must be part of the problem (though BOTH of my controllers act the same way in regards to making notes hang if I hit the keys the right way, but MIDI-OX doesn't at all, ever, unless I change MIDI channels while holding a note down, so I have no idea WTF is going on here...)...

Gonna bring my sequencer home from my studio tonight and plug it into my computer, run it through MIDI-OX -> MIDINES and see what the hell is happening.  I'll post updates later.

untilzero
Offline
chicago

Okay...

(MC-500 Sequencer) -> (Computer / Creative Audigy Front Panel) -> (MIDINES)  works great!

What is the difference here?  Plugging straight from my sequencer into MIDINES as I sit here results in mostly choking notes and the ones that do play will hang in the end.... Plugging as stated above results in perfection, and no matter how hard I try I can't get a note to skip or hang... the thing smokes!

So I guess I am hoping for some insight as to why this is happening, so I can correct it at my studio somehow.  I do have a Raspberry Pi I'd be willing to use for this purpose, but outside of that, I'm not bringing my desktop computer into my studio or buying a dedicated one just to play MIDINES... I need other options that don't involve using my computer as a middle man...

If it's really some kind of 'grounding' issue, there has to be a way to build a cheapo MIDI thru box to replicate the fix that is occuring by using the computer as a thru box... if that makes sense.  (though is sure doesn't make sense to me that a shitty soundcard interface from 2003 on my desktop computer somehow works better than dedicated midi hardware!! sigh...)

ANY help is super insanely appreciated... I'm going crazy.

Last edited by untilzero (Feb 24, 2014 12:48 am)

untilzero
Offline
chicago

Then there is this:

wayfar.net wrote:

If there is a grounding (earthing) problem between the NES and your MIDI Sequencer then, MIDINES can miss data unfortunatley. This occurs usually when both the NES *and* the MIDI Sequencer are using cheapo AC Adaptors.

There is a workaround but it requires a PC with a well grounded (earthed) power supply (which most are). Just run your MIDI controller into your PC's MIDI in, and then back out the PC's MIDI out, echoing the MIDI in to the out in software and Midines will work fine that way.

Despite having the original NES adapter and original ac cord for my sequencer (hence, not 'cheapos') I guess I have to entertain the possibility since my sequencer does in fact only have a two-prong cable/inlet (like most old Roland stuff).

Is it really the sequencer's cord / 2-prong inlet at fault here? If so, is there a way to ground it so that this doesn't hassle the MIDINES?  I'm at a total loss here.

Last edited by untilzero (Feb 24, 2014 2:23 am)

TylerBarnes
Offline
Dallas, Texas

Yeah any power cable with only two prongs is not earth referenced. The third prong is the earth pin, which all desktop computers have, hence why it seems daw users don't have as many sticky note problems. Sorry but I don't have a solution.

untilzero
Offline
chicago

Right, and because of this I'd have thought that at least one of my midi thru boxes (each with 3 prong plugs) would've worked, but nope.  I've got a spare PPC Mac and a Raspberry Pi I could sacrifice for the cause, but I doubt the Pi is grounded properly and the PPCs are pretty much dead in the water nowadays...