JaffaCakeMexica
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Lake Titicaca

@protodome:

"Okay, so the passage: C6/9 | C13 | Fmaj9#11 | Bb11 || is emphatically in C major, however requires a few different scales.

C6/9: C major, C lydian (<-- this'll sound cool), or C major pent, whichever you want.

C13: C mixolydian / G dorian (you can treat this as a Gmin7).

Fmaj9#11: F lydian / F major pent.

Bb11: F dorian / F minor pent / Bb lydian (Bb11 is performing the role of an Fm13/Bb)."

Nerdy bandcamp beef aside.

Can you break down these chords you gave in your explanation note by note, maybe explain a bit?
(for example, Em7b5 - D,E,G,A# 036A)

C6/9 -

C13 -

FMaj9#11 -

Bb11 -

Fm13/Bb -

for make great chips benefit of world

Last edited by JaffaCakeMexica (Apr 25, 2016 10:40 pm)

n00bstar
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Montreal, Canada

Not this again.

chunter
Offline
Brunswick, GA USA
JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

Can you break down these chords you gave in your explanation note by note, maybe explain a bit?

http://trainer.thetamusic.com/en/conten … ing-chords

Last edited by chunter (Apr 24, 2016 10:37 pm)

SketchMan3
Offline
NC in the US of America
n00bstar wrote:

Not this again.

Hey, this is a good OP humbly asking for help, and that could possibly gather useful information that might just help someone who is confused about this topic. No need to defecate over it.

I would like to just point out that doing a google search on each of those chords in the key of C would show you a break down of each one. But it's always more fun to get the information from a person you've asked rather than a soulless information machine, so I totally understand.

JaffaCakeMexica
Offline
Lake Titicaca

@chunter: I already listed all the chords in the link you gave me in my previous posts. but protodome's chords are unusual. I have never even heard of them before.

@sketchman: Thanks. Your right. I'll google them and list them here when I'm finished.

Last edited by JaffaCakeMexica (Apr 25, 2016 1:10 pm)

JaffaCakeMexica
Offline
Lake Titicaca

Fair enough. They are real chords. Big, huge piano chords...Lol. Some of them are not possible in tracker arp commands because they go above 3 or 4 notes (depending on which trackers arp commands you use). Some of them go beyond F semitones but I'll write the intervals in hex anyway for brevity and relevance to tracking.

C6/9 - C, E, A, D - 0, 4, 9, E

C13 - C, A#, E, A - 0, A, 10, 9

FMaj9#11 - F, G, B, C - 0, 2, 6, 7

Bb11 - A#, D, F, G#, C, D# - 0, 4, 7, A, E, 11

Fm13 - F, G#, C, D, D# - 0, 3, 7, 9, A (for this one I don't see how "/Bb" applies).

I don't ever write any flats. I only use sharps.
Also I dont use the roman numeral scale degrees.
Yeah, cant be bothered with that. I'm a tracker guy, not a pianist
(pianists are pseudo-gei because 'pianist' sounds like p-nis).

That was a nice exercise.

Now what scales / key signatures!!! do each of those chords fit into?:

C6/9 - C, E, A, D - 0, 4, 9, E...

(C Major C, D, E, F, G, A, B : YES)
(C Lydian C, D, E, F#, G, A, B : YES)
(C Pentatonic Major C, D, E, G, A : YES)

C13 - C, A#, E, A - 0, A, 10, 9...

(C Major C, D, E, F, G, A, B : NO)
(C Mixolydian C, D, E, F, G, A, A# : YES)
(G Dorian G, A, A#, C, D, E, F : YES)

FMaj9#11 - F, G, B, C - 0, 2, 6, 7

(C Major C, D, E, F, G, A, B : YES)
(F Lydian F, G, A, B, C, D, E : YES)
(F Pentatonic Major F, G, A, C, D : NO)

Bb11 - A#, D, F, G#, C, D# - 0, 4, 7, A, E, 11

(C Major C, D, E, F, G, A, B : NO)
(F Dorian F, G, G#, A#, C, D, D# : YES)
(F Pentatonic minor F, G#, A#, C, D# : NO)
(Bb / A# Lydian A#, C, D, E, F, G, A : NO)

Fm13(/Bb???) - F, G#, C, D, D# - 0, 3, 7, 9, A

(Bb / A# Lydian A#, C, D, E, F, G, A : NO)

"Seriously dude, go learn some music theory" - protodome

In the end, out of 14, you got 8 correct and 6 incorrect.
You were still 57.14% correct.

I'd imagine you may want to make your rebuttal based on the fact that you used the word 'emphatically' in one of your examples...but a few of these were quite far off, and so you are 'emphatically' WRONG. haha...

Another thing.
In response to your declaration:

"C13: ... (you can treat this as a Gmin7)."

C13 = C, A#, D, F, A
Gm7 = G, A#, D, F

Why would you treat C13 as Gm7? It makes no sense, sorry.

Nevertheless, you chose some very interesting chords here.

Last edited by JaffaCakeMexica (Apr 25, 2016 6:01 pm)

chunter
Offline
Brunswick, GA USA

The  why I answered with a link is because the scope of this question represents at least two semesters of study. When I was first introduced to this kind of harmony, I thought it all sounded like the teacher was mashing keys randomly with open palms. I didn't get the hang of it until a year after I was finished with the class.

If you don't understand the functions of chords (tonic/dominant/subdominant/passing) or how those functions can fit in with scale degrees, I suggest starting there, using chords you already understand how to use. You may learn to use chords this complex with your ears, at a cost of being unable to talk to anybody about what you did. Theory exists as way to objectively understand each other, so it is worth taking the time to learn flats and understand how notes work in the piano or any other instruments.

All that said, I hope you can find your answer eventually.

Edit: A hint about "you can treat one chord as another" is that those two chords have notes in common.

Last edited by chunter (Apr 25, 2016 2:15 pm)

Fearofdark
Offline
Brighton/Southampton
JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

Fair enough. They are real chords. Big, huge piano chords...Lol. Some of them are not possible in tracker arp commands because they go above 3 or 4 notes (depending on which trackers arp commands you use). Some of them go beyond F semitones but I'll write the intervals in hex anyway for brevity and relevance to tracking.

C6/9 - C, E, A, D - 0, 4, 9, E

C13 - C, A#, E, A - 0, A, 10, 9

FMaj9#11 - F, G, B, C - 0, 2, 6, 7

Bb11 - A#, D, F, G#, C, D# - 0, 4, 7, A, E, 11

Fm13 - F, G#, C, D, D# - 0, 3, 7, 9, A (for this one I don't see how "/Bb" applies).

I'm all for music theory discussion on cm.org; we don't get enough of it imo.

Fm13/Bb simply means, Fm13 over Bb. So, the Bb would be our base note, but Fm13 would be played over it.

You seem to be conflating what a 'scale' and a 'key signature' is. A scale is a set of notes, where as a key signature defines the tonality of the music. Using the C major scale is not the same as 'being in C major.'

As roman numerals, you'd write Protodome's passage as:

In C major: I6/9 ->   I13 ->  IV9#11 -> bVII11 -> iv13/7 or bVII13*

*(I'm not quite sure about that last one. Fm13/Bb can alternatively be voiced as Bb13 as they contain the same notes... I think.. I am not great at 13th chords admittedly tongue Protodome or some other music theory buff here could clarify me on this one).

But yeah, the B-flats, A-flats and all other notes that are not within the C major scale would be written in as accidentals.
You only change key signature/tonality in a piece of music if a new tonal centre is established (so if it's clear that a passage of music has well and truely resolved to a new key).

Lastly, whether or not a note is written in as a flat or sharp depends on the key signature we're in and the function of the chord.
(To give a basic example, the chord C7 would be written in as C, E, G, Bb. The B, ie, the '7th degree' is flattened in this case. C7 chords often resolve to F. If we're in C major (and the next chord is F major), the Bb would be written in as an accidental as we haven't fully modulated yet). This can be confusing to tracker musicians who haven't studied music theory because everything in a tracker is in sharps tongue C, E, G, A# (on sheet music anyway) would be incorrect because, even though the tones are the same and it sounds the same as a C7, the A# causes it to spell Caug6 instead.

Last edited by Fearofdark (Apr 25, 2016 4:14 pm)

chunter
Offline
Brunswick, GA USA
Fearofdark wrote:

*(I'm not quite sure about that last one. Fm13/Bb can alternatively be voiced as Bb13 as they contain the same notes... I think.. I am not great at 13th chords admittedly

Consider the difference between ii/V/I and IV/V/I, it's a similar relationship.

JaffaCakeMexica
Offline
Lake Titicaca
chunter wrote:

If you don't understand the functions of chords (tonic/dominant/subdominant/passing) or how those functions can fit in with scale degrees, I suggest starting there, using chords you already understand how to use. You may learn to use chords this complex with your ears, at a cost of being unable to talk to anybody about what you did. Theory exists as way to objectively understand each other

Agreed.

However, I disagree that it is worth taking the time to learn flats. Using flats is just another way to describe notes that can be easily described using natural and sharp anyway.

I also disagree that one chord can be treated as another because they share some of the same notes, especially when the other notes are not part of the scale described in the key signature.

Last edited by JaffaCakeMexica (Apr 25, 2016 2:22 pm)

JaffaCakeMexica
Offline
Lake Titicaca
Fearofdark wrote:

You seem to be conflating what a 'scale' and a 'key signature' is. A scale is a set of notes, where as a key signature defines the tonality of the music. Using the C major scale is not the same as 'being in C major.'

I dont agree. If I was in C Major then all of the chords I could use would be made up of notes from the C Major scale, as specified by the key signature.

I'm also up for learning more about theory so I'll fact check the details in the rest of your post later this evening and get back to you.

jefftheworld
Offline
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Fearofdark wrote:

You seem to be conflating what a 'scale' and a 'key signature' is. A scale is a set of notes, where as a key signature defines the tonality of the music.

If you want to be super anal, a key signature is a notation for denoting key. ;p

jangler
Offline
United States
JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

Fair enough. They are real chords. Big, huge piano chords...Lol. Some of them are not possible in tracker arp commands because they go above 3 or 4 notes (depending on which trackers arp commands you use). Some of them go beyond F semitones but I'll write the intervals in hex anyway for brevity and relevance to tracking.

in western music theory, chords are (usually and theoretically) built by stacking thirds starting at the root note. an "extended chord" is a chord that goes beyond the octave when built in this way; however, in practice it's likely that such a chord will be used in a different "voicing", meaning that the pitches are rearranged. a simple example of this is that C 047 can be a C major chord arp, as can G 059.

luckily for us keyboard players, guitarists, and chipmusicians, another aspect of "voicing" is the pitches that are omitted (yes, omitted). some of the notes in a chord are considered less essential than others, so a common guitar voicing for a maj9 chord omits the fifth. such a Cmaj9 chord might be voiced C E B D.

JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

I don't ever write any flats. I only use sharps.
Also I dont use the roman numeral scale degrees.

even if you never read or write sheet music, one benefit of using flats instead of sharps when discussing music theory is that it makes talking about chord tones more clear. a C major triad is C E G, and a C minor triad is C Eb G. they're both C triads, so it would make sense that some sort of E remains in the chord. C D# G suggests something like an inverted D#6 chord with the fifth omitted. fearofdark touched on this as well with the Caug6 example.

roman numerals aren't used for scale degrees; they're used for chord functions. that topic is really beyond the scope of this post, but knowing something about chord functions will help you understand why one chord might be substituted for another.

JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

Why would you treat C13 as Gm7? It makes no sense, sorry.

chord substitution again. in a progression where you might ordinarily use Gmin7, you could use C13 instead for a different flavor while still preserving the function of the chord in the progression. as chunter mentioned, these chords have tones in common; in fact, a C13 chord contains all of the tones of a Gmin7 chord.

JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

I dont agree. If I was in C Major then all of the chords I could use would be made up of notes from the C Major scale, as specified by the key signature.

please no; literally everyone is telling you this is an incorrect way of thinking about keys, scales, and modes. it will be hard to progress in your understanding of music theory if you insist on thinking this way.

chunter
Offline
Brunswick, GA USA
JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

I dont agree. If I was in C Major then all of the chords I could use would be made up of   from the C Major scale, as specified by the key signature.

This is a common misunderstanding. As an exercise, you may consider how you can use F# in the key of C major without abandoning the key. Even if you aren't sure, just contemplate it for a bit.

JaffaCakeMexica
Offline
Lake Titicaca
spacetownsavior wrote:

dude I JUST told you what accidentals were and you go off and use it wrong again! accidentals are written next to the notes and NOT the key signature because they are literally notes that don't normally belong in the key signature! why do you think they're called accidentals?

In music, an accidental is a note of a pitch (or pitch class) that is not a member of the scale or mode indicated by the most recently applied key signature. In musical notation, the sharp (♯), flat (♭), and natural (♮) symbols, among others, mark such notes—and those symbols are also called accidentals. - wikipedia

jangler
Offline
United States

i don't understand what you think is contradictory between what that spacetownsavior quote says and what that wikipedia quote says

it's ok for notes not to be a member of the scale implied by the key signature; that's why we have a notation for it :~)