uptick
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Hello everyone,

As someone who grew up in the Nintendo, Super Nintendo and warez cracktro era, the sound of chiptunes is somewhat of a nostalgia for me.

I know that when it comes to creating chipmusic, there's many ways to do it; while using a gameboy handheld with LSDj might provide you the luxury to do live performances, on the other hand, using a tracker software can also prove to be very enjoyable as well as it provides a better interface and workflow.

Currently I'm thinking of starting out with a daw or a tracker in order to get my feet wet, and keeping the gameboy + LSDj option open for down the road; I'm a programmer as well and very interested in the demoscene, so doing everything via the computer is something I quite enjoy.

Now, about trackers, I know that some trackers are dedicated to certain chip correct? That there are trackers specifically for making the Amiga sound, the NES sound, the Gameboy sounds, c64 sounds, etc. But let's say if i'm not hung up on limiting my chip music to a specific chip or hardware, but instead want to be able to use all the sounds from various platforms while making my tunes.... are there any trackers that are able to utilize sounds from multiple chisets and platforms?

In addition, how does it actually work? Let's say we're talking about the Amiga chip, does the program assign a command or number to every permutation of sounds that the chip is capable of producing ? or are these sounds actually recorded into samples by people from games overtime and grew as a collection?

I guess my main question is, when using a tracker and producing chiptunes, are all the sounds at our disposal? or do we have to personally acquire and build up our collections of sounds from samples, etc? This is my primary concern. ^_^

I've always had a hoarder mentality whenever it comes to hobbies, so if this was the case, I would probably just ended up spending most of my time trying to collect as much sounds as possible instead of focusing on actually making music.  (surely i'm not the only one with this habit?) lol

Lastly, when it comes to trackers, what would you guys recommend? Is renoise a good choice? does it offer support for multiple chipsets and platforms? nes, amiga, atari, gameboy, etc? It seems like a modern daw/tracker that still stayed true to its roots and even allows the user full control via the keyboard which I thought was great.

I use Linux as well as Windows, so i'm quite open to all suggestions. ^_^

yoyz2k
Offline
france

There is different kind of tracker on linux, if you want to use a desktoo/laptop.
For me there is tracker which has one sound  engine at a time :
-  chip sound : goatracker c64, adlib tracker (opl) ;
- defflemask ( maybe this one support multiple sound engine at a time or multiple instance, could be interesting to you )
- sampler : lgpt, impulse, etc...
- klystrack, chip sound related

and the other one which use multiple sound engine at the same time, but they are not chip related IMHO :
- sunvox, renoise, picoloop

you seem to say, you don't want to stick with only one kind of sound, so I think, sample tracker could be the way to go. Or maybe try defflemask which support different sound engine on the same interface. But I don't know if you can mix gb sound with megadrive for example. I have not use this one.

I think you need to discover using those tracker if you want to make sound "from a chip", or you want to use "kind of chip sound" from a sampler or synth engine.

Hope the best for you, find your way thru the jungle wink

EDIT :
I think I have not fully reply to your question. Each tracker as it's own way to make music. So for amiga like, IIRC, it is only sample, so you have to collect sample from everywhere from the internet or collect "mod" file which contain sample and parameter (instrument) connected to the sample. The "mod" file are really interesting as format because it is quite portable and you can dump instrument sometime ( depend on the tracker ).

There is tracker which is focus on keyboard also, and other which use keyboard and mouse, not the same feeling, I know I don't like to use mouse at all because I'm a linux command line nerds. For some people mouse is a bottleneck and it is maybe a reason they like tracker or hardware gears.

I think in my case I don't like sampler because you need ( as you seem to say ) to collect sample, it take times, and you don't make music. You collect sample and you will never have all the sample in the world, so be aware, that sampler take more time than synth engine. But the two are really important ( I use also sample but from hardware sampler, less distractive ). Or you can choose to use a big bank of sample and say I have enough let's make music.

And remeber one thing, make music for you not for every one, it will be the better way to enjoy what you produce wink

Last edited by yoyz2k (Aug 31, 2016 11:55 am)

unexpectedbowtie
Offline
Glasgow, Scotland.

One option you could consider is trying out LSDJ on an emulator first so you are able to use your computer and try it out before committing to cash on the hardware side. That's what I did, and I ended up completely falling down the rabbit hole...

urbster1
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Naptown

if you're looking for a tracker you can't do better than renoise. if you want some extra chip-related bells and whistles check out chipsounds and the other plogue products

uptick
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yoyz2k wrote:

and the other one which use multiple sound engine at the same time, but they are not chip related IMHO :
- sunvox, renoise, picoloop

why do you mean exactly when you say they are not chip related?
as in, they don't contain the chip engine that produces the authentic chip sound for that particular platform, but instead uses other means to recreate the sounds?

and thanks so much for the post, it really helps to know the difference between sample based and non-sample based trackers.

uptick
Offline
urbster1 wrote:

if you're looking for a tracker you can't do better than renoise. if you want some extra chip-related bells and whistles check out chipsounds and the other plogue products

renoise supports multiple sound engines right?
what chip sound does it actually support though? gameboy? NES? amiga? atari?

and is there a difference between using renoise vs one of those older traditional tracker that is dedicated to a particular format?

someone mentioned that some trackers have sound engine of a particular platform built into the system so that the sound you produce from so tracker will be authentic, while others uses synthesis to recreate that sound ? are the differences detectable at all? or it makes no differences at all? smile

yoyz2k
Offline
france
uptick wrote:
yoyz2k wrote:

and the other one which use multiple sound engine at the same time, but they are not chip related IMHO :
- sunvox, renoise, picoloop

why do you mean exactly when you say they are not chip related?
as in, they don't contain the chip engine that produces the authentic chip sound for that particular platform, but instead uses other means to recreate the sounds?

and thanks so much for the post, it really helps to know the difference between sample based and non-sample based trackers.

Yes exactly. Some people like to use a "chip" related engine : gameboy, commodore, nes. Some people don't care too much about it. They like the sound of chip but they don't stick to a particular chip.
For example, I like nanoloop 2.x and nanoloop android/iphone for their sound and the workflow. I like sunvox sound engine, for the sound engine. They made sound that can be related to sound chip area, if you want but it is not sound chip at all.

Your welcome wink

yoyz2k
Offline
france
uptick wrote:
urbster1 wrote:

if you're looking for a tracker you can't do better than renoise. if you want some extra chip-related bells and whistles check out chipsounds and the other plogue products

renoise supports multiple sound engines right?
what chip sound does it actually support though? gameboy? NES? amiga? atari?

and is there a difference between using renoise vs one of those older traditional tracker that is dedicated to a particular format?

someone mentioned that some trackers have sound engine of a particular platform built into the system so that the sound you produce from so tracker will be authentic, while others uses synthesis to recreate that sound ? are the differences detectable at all? or it makes no differences at all? smile

If I'm right renoise is a standard well made tracker which support plugin. Each plugin is a sound engine or an effect.
A "sound engine" as a plugin make sound, some plugin will be really close to the sound of a sound chip.
But here it is only a matter of plugin quality and if you want to be close to the original sound or not.

each tracker has it's own workflow, there is no real standard, no standard workflow, no standard command. Lot's of tracker doesn't support plugin so you can not plug nes, c64, gb vst for example. If you like one work with it, learn it. You will be able to reuse lot's of what you have learn in another tracker, but each has it's own way to work. lsdj and lgpt are great from my experience, because they are well thinked and they don't use mouse.

Today there are plugin which can be really close, I can not see the difference sometime. They are other plugin which will not be as close, but you can like it too, only a matter of taste. Plogue plugin seem to have a really good reputation, I don't buy plugin so I don't know how they sound between free and non free.
And plugin are "noise" free, it is difficult to play with real old hardware without a minimal background noise.

Anyway, no plugin can sound and can give the feeling of the old beast. Some people want to drive the real volkswagen beetle, some people want the feeling and the look but preffer the new bettle wink

I have had lots of old gb c64, megadrive stuff in my home which were cover by dust. And today, when I want a kind of sound, I emulate it with free tools. Or I use nanoloop because it use less space in my home and it use less cable and the sound is cleaner.
But yeah, the feeling of a real c64.... I can not describe, but yeah, it sound really analog, warm and a little noisy in the bass smile
I have used lsdj on emulator, it doesn't reproduce this little background noise and the sound is a bit different, cleaner.
The c64 is for me the best sound chip out there. But it is a really big stuff like a laptop, so you need space to use it. And yeah, a plugin can give the same kind of feeling, but you will not have this same warm, noise. Music is feeling, so.... sometime it's important for people to use the real one...


All in one apps with a good sequencer and real hardware are really my way to go today. If you use a PC, maybe try some free tracker, some with keyboard mouse, some with keyboard only, some with c64 sound, some with sample. You can use lsdj emulated on PC to have an idea.  And you will see what you really like.
Don't buy a software before 3 month IMHO.

my.Explosion
Offline
Finland
uptick wrote:
urbster1 wrote:

if you're looking for a tracker you can't do better than renoise. if you want some extra chip-related bells and whistles check out chipsounds and the other plogue products

renoise supports multiple sound engines right?
what chip sound does it actually support though? gameboy? NES? amiga? atari?

and is there a difference between using renoise vs one of those older traditional tracker that is dedicated to a particular format?

someone mentioned that some trackers have sound engine of a particular platform built into the system so that the sound you produce from so tracker will be authentic, while others uses synthesis to recreate that sound ? are the differences detectable at all? or it makes no differences at all? smile

1) Renoise "supports" none of those. Becuase that's not necessarily what it's designed for. Like, you don't pick a soundchip you want to work against and then make tunes for it, that's not what Renoise "does" AFAIK, not out of the box, at least.

That does however really sound more like something Chipsounds VST does. It lets you choose what soundchip to work with and then you write melodies and stuff that get played by the VST. So the sounds you get out of it are modeled very accurately to the soundchip of your choosing and they have quite a few of them available. I use it a ton, then I work in Ableton Live as well, not a tracker anymore (aside from LSDJ).

2) There's a very big difference between Renoise and "hardware trackers". Renoise is freaking HUGE and expandable and will get you into territories of very modern dance music if you want it to. It's still built on top of tracker layout and is very familiar to other trackers built for specific soundchips but aside from that it's very very vast compared to a SID chip, for example.

3) No, generally, if you want to make authentic sounds, make them on authentic chips or something that emulates them intimately. Yes you can make stuff that sounds "authentic" on basically any synth and in any tracker generally they very often work on the same principles. But no, people with trained ears will be able to tell them apart more often than not, I'm afraid. smile There will always be differences to some degree.



Oh man this is complicated stuff to explain and I never was a teacher. Just figured I'd take a stab at demystifying this to some degree. Sorry if I come across harsh or whatever, it's really NOT my intention. I'm just trying to explain this stuff as best I know how. smile

Start off in Renoise if you're still unsure and check out Plogue and what they've done with Chipsounds. Try the demo or something of either.


And just to round up and circle back: these are my recommendations anyhow: get the hardware and the tracker for it, or get something that emulates the sound. Or just pick a tracker like famitracker, milkytracker or something like that and work with that.
You'll get the "chiptune sound" easily because the tools available for shaping the sound are limited in resolution/features. Again, this depends on the tracker. Milkytracker, for example, is less "limited" than Famitracker and Renoise in comparison is brimming with features, there's practically no limits.

Sorry if this sounds confusing. Good luck! smile

Disclaimer: When I say that something is "limited" in "features" I strictly mean the possibilities that are exposed to the user of the soundchip. I am not berating one chip in favor of another. Cool? cool.

Last edited by my.Explosion (Sep 1, 2016 4:15 pm)

uptick
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no it's not harsh at all!
thanks for the clarification, i think i'll just keep it simple and start out with traditional trackers for now smile

bitpusher2600
Offline

I would just throw my two cents on Deflemask. Computer based tracker that does a small multitude of different consoles/chipsets and does not need you to provide any sample libraries or not. I tinker with it from time to time but I fear I may be hypocritical in suggesting it as a supreme tracker since I myself do prefer the hardware side of chip music, as in using actual hardware, so my only use for my computer in that regard is recording the output from my mixing console. At any rate, good luck my man! smile

garvalf
Offline
France
uptick wrote:

do we have to personally acquire and build up our collections of sounds from samples, etc? This is my primary concern. ^_^

I think you've already got good answers, but anyway we can discuss a bit more on this topic.

There are at least 4 major ways to create "chiptunes":

1/ Use native software on original machines (for ex SidWizard on C64, Maxymizer on Atari ST) or on emulators.

2/  Use cross platform software on modern computers (for ex. famitracker, DefleMask, vortex tracker), targeting original hardware: you can export to file format compatible which you can replay on real C64, real Sinclair Spectrum, Amstrad, Megadrive / Genesis etc

3/  Use VST emulating the sound of original chips or for creating new sound designs (like LMMS, Sunvox, picoloop on linux). It can sound rather genuine, but some VST for example won't have limits like original chip would had (you can have 10 voices for sounding like a C64, while the original had only 3 voices). But even if you stay in the limits of the original, you won't be able to replay your music on original hardware. It's like creating a game which has a look and feel of a gameboy, but with something like SDL, rpg maker or gamemaker, it will look and behave similar but you won't be able to run the game on an old gameboy.

4/  Use sample based sounds, generally with trackers (originally on Amiga, now everywhere, for example MilkyTracker, Modplug Tracker). The "problem" with samples is when you transpose them (for example from C2 to C6), it can sometimes sound different than it would have been with an original instrument (flute, piano) or with an original sound chip. You can also create instrument with a different samples assigned to a group of notes (most trackers can do that), or even every note (like for soundfonts or on digital piano. Sunvox and LMMS can do that as well)

Some people will prefer to use only original hardware and won't even touch an emulator, while others can use crossplatforms but stay within the chip limitations (that's mostly my case). And an other group will prefer to have no limit for their creativity and can use whatever sound available (I can do that with lmms and sunvox as well). So it's up to you.

It's not always possible to start a song in a tracker and continue onto an other (or convert a song from one chip into an other) but some trackers can import/export midi or mod/xm so there is often a way.

If I can make a little advice, try to start with DefleMask, what is cool with it is it's easy to get started with it, and also you can switch from one system to an other (start with a C64 music, 3 SID channels, then redo the song with the Megadrive chips, 6 FM channels and 3 PSG square channels). On the other hand you can't import / export to other trackers, but you can export to real hardware.

I've made a comparison of some trackers and tools I'm using (from a linux user point of view):
http://garvalf.online.fr/index.php?page … s_trackers

Last edited by garvalf (Sep 3, 2016 11:42 am)