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LOL LEGAL CONCERNS
I'll write you a track you can loop for as long as you want for $100 bucks, and give you the rights in an instant. Anything I'd write that's video-gamey isn't really coming from my heart so I don't have any artistic integrity to worry about haha. Let me know what you want, I'm down.
Anything I'd write that's video-gamey isn't really coming from my heart
Uhhhh. If you're not putting your heart into it, you're doing it wrong. 
Careful planning protects both parties in a well-written contract.
My ire is inspired partly by a previous thread about dangling cassettes, as well as knowing a few too many people who entered into binding agreements without ironing all the details in them first. I am thinking about making a "contracts for dummies" or "what to expect when freelancing" thread in the future.
I am thinking about making a "contracts for dummies" or "what to expect when freelancing" thread in the future.
I think that would be very useful in this community.
chunter wrote:I am thinking about making a "contracts for dummies" or "what to expect when freelancing" thread in the future.
I think that would be very useful in this community.
Agreed!
This isn't a competition. It's spec.
Exactly.
I'm afraid I have to get serious for a minute and voice some concerns, mostly inspired by horrible freelance experience I've had and witnessed in the past in this internet music age. I'm not here to convince anyone into doing or not doing it, but $100 flat rate for a All Rights Reserved 10-minute piece of audio is a horribly pathetic deal for a musician of any talent level, even if you were to compose a <30sec loop and repeat it for ten minutes. Obviously it's your decision but in my opinion this isn't worth it for any single musician on here.
OP: In your defense, the game looks interesting and the cards look beautiful in design and artwork, but in my opinion I think this is a straight low-ball deal for what it entails. For something like this it would make more sense like Nick Maynard suggested to actively seek out pre-recorded pieces and contact the artist rather than advertise this offer as a competition or as minusbaby's link expresses, "working on spec." Multiple artists would put in their time and effort to create a brand new song (or maybe, whip out an unreleased song from their backcatalogue) to possibly just be denied their efforts in public.
For the person that their track is chosen: Realize that this kind of deal can essentially be a flat rate where though you get a quick $100, this game can continue selling to any medium and your piece of the pie is essentially done. They can even upload the track to something like YouTube and click the (recently added, yet very applicable) feature of monetization to the video, essentially turning the youtube plays into royalty payments, and you'll still get nothing. Also consider how the audio is going to be distributed: since it's a card game, how will the song be played? Will the track be an accompanying mp3 for playing off of a device or some other means (serious question to OP and overall, maybe card games do this stuff lately-I have no idea). Is this soundtrack going to be for sale? Where does the money go? Consider all of this with an All Rights Reserved deal, that $100 may be the only thing you may ever see. Recognition and exposure are shiny, attractive concepts to any independent artist but always be aware of estimating the potential outreach you might even gain from something like this by either your own research or asking the client directly and then determining the pros and cons.
Back to OP: I don't intend to derail into chunter's topic material or sound harsh to you, personally I don't think you guys are swindlers at all but if I were to make any kind of hypothesis it would be that you guys aren't very familiar with the climate of freelance music gigs. Or maybe you guys really are and you know that some desperate musician will eventually bite at it. But for the sake of your own project and the community here, I genuinely and in the least hostile manner ever suggest that either the licensing agreement changes or the price is seriously raised.
minusbaby wrote:This isn't a competition. It's spec.
Exactly.
I'm afraid I have to get serious for a minute and voice some concerns, mostly inspired by horrible freelance experience I've had and witnessed in the past in this internet music age. I'm not here to convince anyone into doing or not doing it, but $100 flat rate for a All Rights Reserved 10-minute piece of audio is a horribly pathetic deal for a musician of any talent level, even if you were to compose a <30sec loop and repeat it for ten minutes. Obviously it's your decision but in my opinion this isn't worth it for any single musician on here.
OP: In your defense, the game looks interesting and the cards look beautiful in design and artwork, but in my opinion I think this is a straight low-ball deal for what it entails. For something like this it would make more sense like Nick Maynard suggested to actively seek out pre-recorded pieces and contact the artist rather than advertise this offer as a competition or as minusbaby's link expresses, "working on spec." Multiple artists would put in their time and effort to create a brand new song (or maybe, whip out an unreleased song from their backcatalogue) to possibly just be denied their efforts in public.
For the person that their track is chosen: Realize that this kind of deal can essentially be a flat rate where though you get a quick $100, this game can continue selling to any medium and your piece of the pie is essentially done. They can even upload the track to something like YouTube and click the (recently added, yet very applicable) feature of monetization to the video, essentially turning the youtube plays into royalty payments, and you'll still get nothing. Also consider how the audio is going to be distributed: since it's a card game, how will the song be played? Will the track be an accompanying mp3 for playing off of a device or some other means (serious question to OP and overall, maybe card games do this stuff lately-I have no idea). Is this soundtrack going to be for sale? Where does the money go? Consider all of this with an All Rights Reserved deal, that $100 may be the only thing you may ever see. Recognition and exposure are shiny, attractive concepts to any independent artist but always be aware of estimating the potential outreach you might even gain from something like this by either your own research or asking the client directly and then determining the pros and cons.
Back to OP: I don't intend to derail into chunter's topic material or sound harsh to you, personally I don't think you guys are swindlers at all but if I were to make any kind of hypothesis it would be that you guys aren't very familiar with the climate of freelance music gigs. Or maybe you guys really are and you know that some desperate musician will eventually bite at it. But for the sake of your own project and the community here, I genuinely and in the least hostile manner ever suggest that either the licensing agreement changes or the price is seriously raised.
Can't particularly argue with any of this, an0va. These are all very reasonable warnings to new artists and I'd advise anyone considering doing this to talk it out the pros and cons with some of the more established musicians on the site.
If I made gamey music I wouldn't care about getting the royalties. I'd be happy with the 100 bucks and if the game took off I would be proud to know a song I made was getting a wide exposure. Sure it would be cool to continuously make money from it, but music is a hobby I do just because I love it. I understand everything you guys are saying on the legal aspects and what not, but honestly I wouldn't even care. If I was in coneal's position I would have just been like, "ayo, I can't pay you, but if any of you would like to submit some game music for a free compilation to be used as promo material, that would be dope". I'm sure quite a few people would be like "oh this card game looks fly as fuck, I want my song to be associated with it, and possibly get a free set of these cards." But maybe that's just me and some y'all are like "aw heeeeeeeellllllllllllll naw, gimme dat paper".
If I made gamey music I wouldn't care about getting the royalties. I'd be happy with the 100 bucks and if the game took off I would be proud to know a song I made was getting a wide exposure. Sure it would be cool to continuously make money from it, but music is a hobby I do just because I love it. I understand everything you guys are saying on the legal aspects and what not, but honestly I wouldn't even care. If I was in coneal's position I would have just been like, "ayo, I can't pay you, but if any of you would like to submit some game music for a free compilation to be used as promo material, that would be dope". I'm sure quite a few people would be like "oh this card game looks fly as fuck, I want my song to be associated with it, and possibly get a free set of these cards." But maybe that's just me and some y'all are like "aw heeeeeeeellllllllllllll naw, gimme dat paper".
Yeah, I mean this is fine and that's why I don't want it to sound like I'm convincing people not to apply for this. I'm personally not interested in this kind of deal but as long as people understand what OP is offering, can't stop anyone from really pumping something sick out. I mean hell, this could turn out to be a really cool project in the end result, but I don't want people agreeing to a particular deal and then taking it out on the client when straight up they said what the deal is right away like they did here in the OP (unfortunately, this happens to a lot too). I don't think there will be any problem in this project getting a track but my suggestions are basically an attempt to haggle and make this competition a little more interesting in the process. 
But I also see what coneal is saying in where the focus of their budget is actually going to: this isn't a video game and people might even play and enjoy the game without playing the music at all. It's just interesting to talk about for me too I guess because this is a rare instance where the offer isn't a video game or commercial advertisement, but basically an add-on to an already existing concept.
Can I also ask why does it have to be "all rights"? Why not a percentage of sales? Or why not additional money if the kickstarter is successful?
Will you be shipping a physical cd with each game too?
May I suggest the 100$ is an up front payment for say first 100 units sold or whatever, and possibly a minimal royalty with every further sale? Let's say the game is 10 bucks, 10 cents per sale (unless the developers can spare more) is reasonable imo because the song isn't what's being sold, it's the game with the song on the side as a fun bonus. Coneal could have easily not offered 100$, and asked for just contributors who would gladly do it free. Not all of us are top notch businessmen, if anything I would say most people here are just hobbyists who have never made a dime off their music and don't really mind if they do or not.
Also, I don't think you should send physical CD's. put the songs on bandcamp (or a website) and include download codes or whatever with the product. It's 2012, CD's are dead.
I don't think you should send physical CD's. put the songs on bandcamp (or a website) and include download codes or whatever with the product. It's 2012, CD's are dead.
This.
I've seen your card designs, and I reckon you could come up with some hella nice download cards!
Don't do this without getting a cut of the profits. Looks like it might be a cool game.
well, i'd be fine writing a song for $100. that'd be fine
i'm not writing a whole song just to be entered into a competition with others for the CHANCE of $100
but i don't do vgm-style so it doesn't matter what i think
edit: maybe a better idea would be to have the competition (if you insist on having the competition) about 15 or 30 second bits of songs, and ask the winner to develop the song in full ~ or even better, let people enter songs they've already written into the competition, and only if they win then asking them to write something new. 10 minutes of music is a bit commitment just for a chance (although might be quite a good chance seeing how little interest there has been 
) of payment, the less commitment you expect the more entries you will get and if you choose someone before the song is written you may get more feedback or dare i say CONTROL over what the song sounds like. no one is going to write a 10 minute song for the privilege of being asked to write another 10 minute song (unless they are really desperate), so whatever you get in the competition is all you are going to get, i feel
edit: but i don't do vgm-style so it doesn't matter what i think
Last edited by ant1 (Sep 10, 2012 7:54 am)
@Anty: they want people to write a 2-3:00 song for the competition then the winner extends it.
I agree, I think if people submitted a song they've already done, then they pick based off of style and medium it'd be a lot smoother. Then the winner could write just the 10 minute song and give them updates for feedback or something.
Can I also ask why does it have to be "all rights"? Why not a percentage of sales? Or why not additional money if the kickstarter is successful?
Will you be shipping a physical cd with each game too?
Hi Nick,
We're going with work for hire for two reasons: 1) it gives us the most legal protection, and 2) we don't know yet how we might use the song. The current plan is for the web site, the kickstarter video, and as a download for SOME copies of the game (not all, this would be a Kickstarter enticement to get people to pledge more), but we might come up with other uses of it in the future. There is a high enough chance of Kickstarter failure that we don't want to commit to much more than that.
We're already starting to get some cool tracks. I'm hoping others will take the leap, but as I've said multiple times in this post, this arrangement is not for everyone and I fully understand (and even condone) some of the critiques we're seeing here. Please do consider the pros and cons of this arrangement before sending your work. We're looking for someone who we (hopefully) can have a positive and supportive transaction with.
Chris