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Arad, Romania
baudtack wrote:
qb wrote:

What exactly do you mean by "vibrations in the air"?

Sound. It's just the air vibrating in a particular pattern and pushing on your ear drum.

If you own the score then it's up to you to allow others to sell modified versions of it.

It should be pretty clear why that is a good way to do things. The law is there to stop people like Timbaland from remixing your song and making thousands of dollars in the process. In such instances most people would feel cheated.

Last edited by qb (Aug 13, 2014 8:50 am)

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UK, Leicester
baudtack wrote:
Alpine wrote:

I mean qpb's already summed up what I was going to say, but I'll say it anyway. There's a difference between using a chord progression and releasing something that someone else has made using that chord progression. We all know that the dude from Oasis gets hella narked about anyone using the same progression, but he can't do anything about it. However, if I was going to do a cover of Wonderwall and sell it for money, then he has every right to be angry. It's fine to use elements of someone else's music in your own, but at least do something creative with it, Greenday's Basket Case is one of my favourite songs, and even though the chord progression is pretty much ripped straight from Pachelbel's Canon, there's enough of a difference in the tracks to say that it isn't a cover or remix.

Having a right to be angry, which I disagree that he does frankly, isn't the same as should be able to hold copyright on. I mean chord progressions as ridiculous extreme.

The rational behind behind copyright is to give a content creator limited term rights over a work so that they are incentivized monetarily  to create the work in the first place, but still limited so that society as a whole can benefit from building off their work. Without getting into the insanity that is the infinitely renewable copyright (I'm looking at you Mickey and George Lucas), having a copyright over recordings does exactly that thing. Going beyond that to have the copyright include the song itself goes far beyond, imho, the point of copyright law. It in fact, does some of the opposite by stiffing the creativity of others. Unless you have money, which I suppose is about par for the course.

EDIT: To address what you said about doing something creative, I completely agree. I just don't think we should have to legislate that. There is a chiptune artist that I won't mention, that kind of bugs me because the covers they create are just flat xerox's of the original songs. I don't like that. I just don't think they should be stopped from doing that because they lack the funds to pay for it.

You aren't building on it if you're covering it, you seem to be saying that because someone releases a song, they should be able to make money off of other people using their work. I put out all of my stuff under a license that allows people to build on it, but non-commercially. I am 100% happy with people remixing or re-interpreting my work in their own way. What I am not cool with is people using something that was originally mine in any form for their own financial gain. Artists are under no obligation to allow others to let other people play their work, let alone play it and make money out of doing so. I like that the chipscene as a whole is pretty open about sharing stuff, .lsdsng songs, or .ftms or whatever, but you don't have bands give out chord sheets with their music, if you're luck then you get lyrics.
By the same token would you be fine with what qb said, if you were to put effort into a song, only to have someone remix it, and make millions of X currency off of something that is mostly your own work? I would feel cheated. If someone was going to do that, I'd like a cut of it as well, not just because I need money, but because something that I have put time and effort into creating is making money, therefor I should be aloud a percentage of the money for my work.

You're telling me you wouldn't be narked even a little if you had a timbaland pulled on you?

Last edited by Alpine (Aug 13, 2014 3:46 pm)

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Alpine wrote:

You aren't building on it if you're covering it, you seem to be saying that because someone releases a song, they should be able to make money off of other people using their work. I put out all of my stuff under a license that allows people to build on it, but non-commercially. I am 100% happy with people remixing or re-interpreting my work in their own way. What I am not cool with is people using something that was originally mine in any form for their own financial gain. Artists are under no obligation to allow others to let other people play their work, let alone play it and make money out of doing so. I like that the chipscene as a whole is pretty open about sharing stuff, .lsdsng songs, or .ftms or whatever, but you don't have bands give out chord sheets with their music, if you're luck then you get lyrics.
By the same token would you be fine with what qb said, if you were to put effort into a song, only to have someone remix it, and make millions of X currency off of something that is mostly your own work? I would feel cheated. If someone was going to do that, I'd like a cut of it as well, not just because I need money, but because something that I have put time and effort into creating is making money, therefor I should be aloud a percentage of the money for my work.

You're telling me you wouldn't be narked even a little if you had a timbaland pulled on you?

I guess by cover you mean, I'm playing exactly the same way you did. Perfectly. Which of course can happen in electronic music but basically no where else. That's kind of a weird situation. It might be kind of a dick move but I don't think there should be legal repercussions for being a jerk.

If someone remixed something I released, and it blew up and they made millions, whether or not I'd be upset isn't the question. The question is should I have legal protection from that happening and I'd say no. I'm willing to sacrifice those possible rights for what I see as the greater good of having free access to work with music. I think this is just a fundamental philosophical difference between us. If you can't tell by now I'm a bit of a socialist anyway.

It's all a moot point until I'm crowned king of the earth.

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IL, US

are you completely unfamiliar with the existence of tribute bands? usually uncreative middle aged guys with good dayjobs and a ton of money to buy the exact gear their favorite band used and even go as far as dressing like them, playing the songs note for note? its kind of (sadly) a big industry actually... beatles and elvis tribute bands especially

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UK, Leicester
baudtack wrote:
Alpine wrote:

You aren't building on it if you're covering it, you seem to be saying that because someone releases a song, they should be able to make money off of other people using their work. I put out all of my stuff under a license that allows people to build on it, but non-commercially. I am 100% happy with people remixing or re-interpreting my work in their own way. What I am not cool with is people using something that was originally mine in any form for their own financial gain. Artists are under no obligation to allow others to let other people play their work, let alone play it and make money out of doing so. I like that the chipscene as a whole is pretty open about sharing stuff, .lsdsng songs, or .ftms or whatever, but you don't have bands give out chord sheets with their music, if you're luck then you get lyrics.
By the same token would you be fine with what qb said, if you were to put effort into a song, only to have someone remix it, and make millions of X currency off of something that is mostly your own work? I would feel cheated. If someone was going to do that, I'd like a cut of it as well, not just because I need money, but because something that I have put time and effort into creating is making money, therefor I should be aloud a percentage of the money for my work.

You're telling me you wouldn't be narked even a little if you had a timbaland pulled on you?

I guess by cover you mean, I'm playing exactly the same way you did. Perfectly. Which of course can happen in electronic music but basically no where else. That's kind of a weird situation. It might be kind of a dick move but I don't think there should be legal repercussions for being a jerk.

If someone remixed something I released, and it blew up and they made millions, whether or not I'd be upset isn't the question. The question is should I have legal protection from that happening and I'd say no. I'm willing to sacrifice those possible rights for what I see as the greater good of having free access to work with music. I think this is just a fundamental philosophical difference between us. If you can't tell by now I'm a bit of a socialist anyway.

It's all a moot point until I'm crowned king of the earth.

>Socialist
>wants to be king of the earth
I'm not going to say that I think you're a bit of an idiot, but...

Yes, a cover is playing someone else's music the way they did, it may be on different instruments, but by definition, you aren't adding very much to it, so it isn't a remix.
I mean, I'm not trying to attack your ideals, I have a feeling that we have pretty similar ones, if anything we should both be saying "No, you can't make money off of my music because all music should be free" but idk, if I'm living under a system that's broken, I might as well take advantage of it. I wouldn't be happy putting my music out for free for the world to enjoy, while someone else restricts the access of a version of it that that was originally free.

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Alpine wrote:

>Socialist
>wants to be king of the earth
I'm not going to say that I think you're a bit of an idiot, but...

Thanks. Glad we can have a rational discussion about it without resorting to name calling. King of the earth was a joke.

Alpine wrote:

Yes, a cover is playing someone else's music the way they did, it may be on different instruments, but by definition, you aren't adding very much to it, so it isn't a remix.

Now you're arguing that different instrumentation isn't adding anything to a song. I don't even know what to say to that. What constitutes it being different enough? What if I change one verse? One line? One word? One phrase? One note? Where do you draw the line? It's clear to me that you think somewhere there is a line over which something would count as a remix and then be OK.

Alpine wrote:

I mean, I'm not trying to attack your ideals, I have a feeling that we have pretty similar ones, if anything we should both be saying "No, you can't make money off of my music because all music should be free" but idk, if I'm living under a system that's broken, I might as well take advantage of it. I wouldn't be happy putting my music out for free for the world to enjoy, while someone else restricts the access of a version of it that that was originally free.

I don't think people shouldn't take advantage of a system that has rules in place that I don't think should be there. That wouldn't be rational to expect everyone to do that. An analog to what you're talking about exists in the software world it's called a copyleft licence, where the rules of copyright law are used to keep someone from taking Free software and making changes to it and selling it as proprietary rather than re-release those changes back into the community. That would be the ideal situation in music as well, imho.

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e.s.c. wrote:

are you completely unfamiliar with the existence of tribute bands? usually uncreative middle aged guys with good dayjobs and a ton of money to buy the exact gear their favorite band used and even go as far as dressing like them, playing the songs note for note? its kind of (sadly) a big industry actually... beatles and elvis tribute bands especially

You're right. My bad. I still don't have a problem with this. Particularly in this context in a capitalist society, because you're not competing with the original band. No one says "Well I could go see that Beatles Reunion Tour... or I could go see Rain for half the price. Guess I'll do that." It's not the same experience at all. (and yes I know two of The Beatles are dead. It's just an example.)

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IL, US

people go see cover bands too, though, not just tributes to dead artists.. lots of middle aged dudes playing $400+ a night gigs with 0 original songs... seems fair they kick a little of that to van halen or whoever else their shitty band covers

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IL, US

and its only ever a remix if using parts of the original sound recording, its a cover if you are re recording yourself, even if you change things around, use different instruments and add parts of your own..
for example.. orig


cover

orig


cover

remix (well, almost more of a mashup)

Last edited by e.s.c. (Aug 13, 2014 5:16 pm)

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e.s.c. wrote:

people go see cover bands too, though, not just tributes to dead artists.. lots of middle aged dudes playing $400+ a night gigs with 0 original songs... seems fair they kick a little of that to van halen or whoever else their shitty band covers

Done well a cover band is a performance piece, like a play. I don't see anything wrong with that. Should they give a kick back to the original artist? Maybe. But I don't see why they should be forced to give a residual to the copyright holder in perpetuity.

You seem to have a complaint against middle aged dudes with zero original songs. If people are willing to pay to see them, I don't see what the issue is. They aren't making a contribution to music in the grand scheme of things, but so what?

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IL, US

and examples of something made from samples of other people's work has passed the boundary into being an original work



and pretty much all the music on the beastie boy's album "Paul's Boutique"

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IL, US
baudtack wrote:
e.s.c. wrote:

people go see cover bands too, though, not just tributes to dead artists.. lots of middle aged dudes playing $400+ a night gigs with 0 original songs... seems fair they kick a little of that to van halen or whoever else their shitty band covers

Done well a cover band is a performance piece, like a play. I don't see anything wrong with that. Should they give a kick back to the original artist? Maybe. But I don't see why they should be forced to give a residual to the copyright holder in perpetuity.

You seem to have a complaint against middle aged dudes with zero original songs. If people are willing to pay to see them, I don't see what the issue is. They aren't making a contribution to music in the grand scheme of things, but so what?

theyre just boring and usually the ones doing the cover bands/tributes from my experience
and when performing a play, if its still under copyright, they do have to pay the playwriter.. otherwise playwriters couldn't really make a living at all

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Ok, So to pull a chiptune example, what about

http://chipmusic.org/monotron/music/domino-lsdj-cover

Is that OK or should monotron have to pay whoever owns the copyright to that song? Does it count as a remix? Why isn't instrumentation enough to qualify it as different?

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IL, US

seriously though, your opinions on how it should be in no way effect the reality of the laws in place or mean anyone should feel bad if you decide to go around the law and get a cease & desist..  just watch those videos i posted and you should get what constitutes a cover (yes, even if you add accordion and turn a punk song into polka) and what is a remix, and what isn't really anything resembling the original work in final content, even if it uses parts of the recording.. hell half of hip hop and breakcore stuff borrows drum hits from the same 4 bar drum break, but rechops/splces/cuts/edits the shit out of the amen to make something validly considered as new unique material and not really a copyright violation

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IL, US

technically, yes they are required by law to pay the holder of the publishing rights for the written song in order to either release it or perform it publically (though many choose to take their chances and know theyre usually facing cease & desist at worst, not lawsuit)

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e.s.c. wrote:

theyre just boring and usually the ones doing the cover bands/tributes from my experience
and when performing a play, if its still under copyright, they do have to pay the playwriter.. otherwise playwriters couldn't really make a living at all

Boring shouldn't be a factor on if they should be allowed to do what they do without monetary compensation.

It's not the same as a play though. But to take an example. I know Rain do a "Coming to America" show where they have the same sets and staging etc as the Beatles did for their first American tour. Should they have to pay the set designers and whoever designed their costumes?

I think we're starting to veer away from the topic of music and copyright here though and it's part of a broader discussion about copyright in general.