Mrwimmer
Offline
Los Angeles, CA

So.  I have a bit of an issue.  My first tracker was LSDj, and so when I pick up something like Famitracker or Modplug, I have a lot of issues translating parts of my style over.  Specifically, rhythm.  Because tempo and groove are separate entities in lsdj, there's a lot more granularity in modulating them to get whatever it is that I may desire.

I know that one solution to this is to just suck it up and write at speed 1, but that is so tedious that I end up losing track of what I'm trying to do while I'm fiddling with the tracking.

So yeah, does anybody have any helpful advice about what can be done to get a more "natural" feeling rhythmic tracker parts done, specifically where swing is concerned?  I've been starting a lot of .ftms, getting annoyed about being unable to make it not stilted, and then just stopping.

Last edited by Mrwimmer (Oct 11, 2014 3:34 pm)

CountSymphoniC
Offline

When composing, I tend to try to avoid writing rhythms that sit "on" the beat. I instead will write rhythms that move around the beat. This is difficult to explain without showing you in person, but an attempt is worth it.

One way I look at this... is when the rhythm sits on the beat, there's no real tension adding/release.
Say you have in 4/4 time, B = Bass/Kick drum, S = Snare:
1            |2           |3                 |4      <<<<Beats
B-2-3-4-|S-6-7-8-|B-10-11-12-|S-14-15-16.

It's when you add rhythmic hits around the beat or skip beats that tension is introduced and you resolve it by landing back on the beat. Say this for example:
1            |2           |3               |4       <<<<Beats
B-2-3-B-|S-6-7-8-|9-10-B-12-|S-14-15-16.

That's for rhythms. You can invert the concept to create really cool stuff. Have the rhythm stay on the beat, but have the melodies, chords etc... using the concept above to flow around the beat and resolve tension by landing on the beat. Practice this, and your songwriting will improve exponentially. Hopefully that was clear because it's an important concept in songwriting in my opinion.

Last edited by CountSymphoniC (Oct 11, 2014 4:24 pm)

VCMG
Offline
California

I'm not sure about Famitracker, but most PC trackers have tick commands (Axx in s3m/it, Fxx in mod/xm) that let you specify a swing rhythm by alternating the number of ticks in each line, which can then be controlled by tempo. The only thing is that you'll lose a command column and have to copy and paste the commands over and over into each pattern since there's no speed tables in ModPlug, but that's not too tedious since you have a mouse.

Last edited by VCMG (Oct 11, 2014 4:33 pm)

Mrwimmer
Offline
Los Angeles, CA

Maybe I should be more clear.  I'm pretty familiar with writing weird rhythms, but I have difficulty translating that style into pc trackers where the number of "ticks" per row and the tempo of playback are the same parameter.  When I write in lsdj, I run my groove at F/9, and my tempo in the 200s, use a lot of note delays and retriggers on drums and stuff, and I was wondering if anybody has ideas for getting something that feels like that in "real" trackers.

VCMG
Offline
California

Actually, in all the big mod formats there are separate tempo and tick commands, so it is possible to manipulate them separately. I think you might be thinking of how tempo works on a C64 or something, where 'tempo' is bound to the refresh rate of the computer and the ticks are the real tempo.

If I'm understanding what you want to do correctly, it shouldn't be any different in a PC tracker (command-usage-wise at least, the commands themselves might work a little different), with the exception of having to copy-paste the tick commands throughout the pattern.

Delek
Offline
Buenos Aires, Argentina

DefleMask has a global even/uneven rows speed (like 4ticks/10ticks) and that gives you a very deep count of grooves. Of course you could, also, change them dynamically by using commands during playback.

CountSymphoniC
Offline

Ahhh. See I thought you were looking for an alternative approach to using grooves to achieving unique rhythms. Have you used Deflemask before? You'll find it to be a very capable tracker for NES/GB/GENESIS/C64 and more wink

DeerPresident
Offline
South Korea

I second Deflemask! Ive used it extensively for noise composition. Rhythms can get insane once you start using commands to fuck with already wacky tick/swing values. I love the Genesis FM instrument editor, and it has the ability to compose for TurboGrafx16. Its a pretty underrated tracker IMHO.

sandneil
Offline

i am not really sure what you are trying to do but tempo and ticks per row are definitely separate in a tracker - it is not true they are the same thing. in impulse tracker tempo is Txx and speed is Axx. in fasttracker 2 and mod i believe they are both Fxx with xx below a certain value (0x20?) controlling speed and above it controlling tempo. you do have control of both there too though

however the final actual tempo is a product of both so i guess you are right that if you want to change ticks per row without changing the final tempo you will have to recalculate the internal tempo

actual tempo = "tempo" * (6 / "speed").

unless you really care about what your final bpm is i don't think it matters a whole amount in practise

i just whack a column full of A08, A04, A08, A04 which averages out at 6 and so the tempo is correct -

impulse tracker also has S6x which is kind of like SDx on all channels simultaenously - delays the whole pattern for x rows (but doesn't catch back up like SDx does). combined with temporary speed changes you can wonk things up a bit this way too

an0va
Offline

LSDJ is still the ultimate tracker to me solely because of what you're saying, Alex. The ability to have each channel using a different value of ticks per line is the defining compositional technique for almost all of the an0va material

yoyz2k
Offline
france

Why don't you continue to use lsdj on PC ?
If you need different kind f sound you can try LGPT which is similar from the interface.
Don't force you to learn new software if you have found te right one smile

SketchMan3
Offline
NC in the US of America

Just deal with it and hack your way through the jungle of alternating speed commands

Delek
Offline
Buenos Aires, Argentina

LSDJ have lot of shortcuts to avoid writing lot of effects, some of them can evolve in bad habits.
As sketchman3 said, in every other normal tracker you use Note Delays, Note Cuts and Speed Commands to make complex rhythms and groove tricks.

By heart, in DefleMask:
9xx - Set Speed Value 1
Fxx - Set Speed Value 2
ECxx - Note Cut
EDxx - Note Delay

Last edited by Delek (Oct 12, 2014 3:25 pm)

Mrwimmer
Offline
Los Angeles, CA

Any and all rhythmic patterns I make in Lsdj have all of those effects.  G, K, and D commands are everything.

defiantsystems
Offline
.FILTHadelphia

Not writing Jazz helps.

herr_prof
Offline
Unsubscribe

I hate Jazz and I still consider those lsdj commands essential to my workflow. I would hate to have to manually do everything in used to doing in a macro command.