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San Diego, CA

gonna give my obligatory music theory spiel here

a lot of what jaffacakemexica's approach to music theory demonstrates is the (mistaken but understandable) belief that music theory is an objective, unchanging thing

music theory wasn't created FOR music, it was created BECAUSE of music. it's merely a means to describe music to another person in a way that allows conversation outside of pure aesthetics. so instead of talking about "whoa wasn't it cool when the song sounded like this and then suddenly it sounded like that", we're talking in terms of chord progressions and cadences and phrases. music theory is just the reasoning behind why things sound the way they do; music theory is not THE REASON things sound the way they do. read that very carefully!

and in any case a lot of what people talk about when they mention music theory is literally just western notation. music can be notated in all sorts of different ways that still make sense to people. in fact a lot of modern music technology is revolutionary because it changes the way we think about music notation! otherwise we'd still be producing music in sibelius and who wants to do that

it's really really important to keep this in perspective

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San Diego, CA
JaffaCakeMexica wrote:
Fearofdark wrote:

You seem to be conflating what a 'scale' and a 'key signature' is. A scale is a set of notes, where as a key signature defines the tonality of the music. Using the C major scale is not the same as 'being in C major.'

I dont agree. If I was in C Major then all of the chords I could use would be made up of notes from the C Major scale, as specified by the key signature.

edit for better example

see measures 6 and 10!

both of those measures have f# accidentals used in broken chords

that does not change the key of the piece, which if you look at the key signature at the beginning is c major

this is what we mean when we say you can use f# and still be in the key of c major

Last edited by spacetownsavior (Apr 25, 2016 6:06 pm)

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United States
spacetownsavior wrote:

music theory wasn't created FOR music, it was created BECAUSE of music. it's merely a means to describe music to another person in a way that allows conversation outside of pure aesthetics.

thank you. i was about to edit my previous post to include this sort of statement. music theory is like a language, and thereby arguments about music theory are sometimes equivalent to arguments about semantics

which are generally considered to be a Waste Of Time

but learning it can still be useful. if someone has questions about specific facets of music theory that they'd like to understand better, a forum is a fine place to ask, but the Entirety of the domain is not something that you can distill into a post. this is why there are books about music theory that are hundreds of pages long and multiple levels of semester-long music theory classes offered at universities

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Alabama
JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

Fair enough. They are real chords. Big, huge piano chords...Lol. Some of them are not possible in tracker arp commands because they go above 3 or 4 notes (depending on which trackers arp commands you use). Some of them go beyond F semitones but I'll write the intervals in hex anyway for brevity and relevance to tracking.

This is wrong. What Protodome gave you is likely a reduction of the chords. These notes could appear at any time in any combination so long as it still feels like one chord is being played.

And here's my background - I'm about to get my degree in music composition and go to gradschool for it. So let me try to break this down since I have a lot of tracker experience as well as jazz composition and arranging experience.

JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

C6/9 - C, E, A, D - 0, 4, 9, E

C13 - C, A#, E, A - 0, A, 10, 9

FMaj9#11 - F, G, B, C - 0, 2, 6, 7

Bb11 - A#, D, F, G#, C, D# - 0, 4, 7, A, E, 11

Fm13 - F, G#, C, D, D# - 0, 3, 7, 9, A (for this one I don't see how "/Bb" applies).

Okay. This is where stuff starts to get wrong. Already. Omitting chord tones from your breakdown of each chord is unfair and shows a lack of care for the original composition (if there was one). If this was straight from, say, a Protodome track, these notes would be present across any of the voices (bass, pads, leads, embellishments and arp flourishes). Not condensed to one fat arp in Milkytracker or whatever. Some of these notes would be merely in passing at first glance, but the emphasis and/or repetition of them establishes that they are indeed part of the chord in a tune. Of course, this is still a chord progression you are wanting to pick apart, not a full easy-to-refer-to song.

As for the last chord, Bb11 (A#11 for those of you in tracker land) functioning as a Fm13/Bb (or A#), that is correct. You actually spelled it out for us. I'm gonna rearrange the pitch classes a bit in your breakdown here.

JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

Bb11 -  A#, F, G#, C, D, D#
Fm13 -       F, G#, C, D, D#

"(Bb11 is performing the role of an Fm13/Bb)." As said by Protodome in the previous thread.

JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

I don't ever write any flats. I only use sharps.
Also I dont use the roman numeral scale degrees.
Yeah, cant be bothered with that. I'm a tracker guy, not a pianist.
That was a nice exercise.

Okay. Problem number 2. The whole western world is still using scale degrees and the Roman numeral system. It works just fine with trackers too. That's part of why using a transposition macro/effect works. The other part is the interpretation of pitch as interval sizes based on a given note (tonic). It's extremely common in atonal music and some music by living composers in the classical world. When you tried to break down the chord tones you assumed the voicing and intervals between the tones. Roman numerals and lead sheet style chords do not make such assumptions unless it's explicitly spelled, you often have to refer to the notated music itself to see if there's something funny going on. Fearofdark's breakdown in his post is great.

JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

Now what scales / key signatures!!! do each of those chords fit into?:

C6/9 - C, E, A, D - 0, 4, 9, E...

(C Major C, D, E, F, G, A, B : YES)
(C Lydian C, D, E, F#, G, A, B : YES)
(C Pentatonic Major C, D, E, G, A : YES)

C13 - C, A#, E, A - 0, A, 10, 9...

(C Major C, D, E, F, G, A, B : NO)
(C Mixolydian C, D, E, F, G, A, A# : YES)
(G Dorian G, A, A#, C, D, E, F : YES)

FMaj9#11 - F, G, B, C - 0, 2, 6, 7

(C Major C, D, E, F, G, A, B : YES)
(F Lydian F, G, A, B, C, D, E : YES)
(F Pentatonic Major F, G, A, C, D : NO)

Bb11 - A#, D, F, G#, C, D# - 0, 4, 7, A, E, 11

(C Major C, D, E, F, G, A, B : NO)
(F Dorian F, G, G#, A#, C, D, D# : YES)
(F Pentatonic minor F, G#, A#, C, D# : NO)
(Bb / A# Lydian A#, C, D, E, F, G, A : NO)

Fm13(/Bb???) - F, G#, C, D, D# - 0, 3, 7, 9, A

(Bb / A# Lydian A#, C, D, E, F, G, A : NO)

Here you assume that these few scales are the only ones that fit. In jazz, different scales can work with the same chord, acting as a sort of "best fit line", and even when the "line" doesn't quite "fit" you're still able to make a rad pattern across them that is uniquely yours based off of scales you (un)knowingly play. These happy accidents are why some young jazzers get their start, or folks can sit at a piano and slay it from a theory perspective.

Also, as you add notes in jazz, you can twist a chord into something it wasn't originally.
So, to deal with your breakdown above:

JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

C13 - C, A#, E, A - 0, A, 10, 9...
(C Major C, D, E, F, G, A, B : NO)

C major scale works in a C13 because the lowered 7th (Bb or A# to tracker folks) can easily be used in passing between A and B, or to go Bb -> B -> C. Also, the C major scale works because with C13 you can also omit the Bb/graze past it and rock the A natural minor scale since it shares the same pitch classes as C major. The A is often very present in the C13 in most situations, and if it isn't, throwing it in the bass can make your C13 some sort of Am13(and then some).

JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

FMaj9#11 -          F, G, B, C - 0, 2, 6, 7
(F Pentatonic Major F, G, A, C, D : NO)

If you feel the need to dispute the functionality of pentatonic scales in a this chord, I think I know where the rest of this is going. The A and the D in the pentatonic scale are important because they fill the roles of a 13th (D) and the 3rd (A) in the Fmaj9#11 chord, even though one may naturally omit those notes. This gives extra room for enforcing the F major/aspect of it all, contrary to the raised 11. And that's just for this particular suggested scale.

JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

Bb11 - A#, D, F, G#, C, D# - 0, 4, 7, A, E, 11

(C Major C, D, E, F, G, A, B : NO)
(F Pentatonic minor F, G#, A#, C, D# : NO)
(Bb / A# Lydian A#, C, D, E, F, G, A : NO)

C major and Bb Lydian work because they embody the pitches from the previous chord and generally stick to the "key" of the chord progression. They only differ from the Bb11's pitch collection by 1 or 2 accidentals. You really put yourself in a corner with saying F pentatonic minor doesn't fit. Tell me, which pitch classes are different? I'll even rearrange them for you.

JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

Bb11 -                  F, G#, A#, C, D#, D
(F Pentatonic minor F, G#, A#, C, D# : NO)

All of the pitches in the F pentatonic minor scale are present in Bb11, but not all the pitches in the Bb11 chord are present in the F pentatonic minor scale.

JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

Fm13(/Bb???) - F, G#, C, D, D# - 0, 3, 7, 9, A
(Bb / A# Lydian A#, C, D, E, F, G, A : NO)

Ah. We don't have to discuss this since you botched the understanding of it the first time. There's no great need to dissect this since Fm13 is the implied sort of value, but the chord is just Bb11.

JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

In the end, out of 14, you got 8 correct and 6 incorrect.
You were still 57.14% correct.

I'd imagine you may want to make your rebuttal based on the fact that you used the word 'emphatically' in one of your examples...but a few of these were quite far off, and so you are 'emphatically' WRONG. haha...

Actually, out of the suggested scales he suggested all work. 14/14, 100% correct. Because he knows what he's talking about. Also, when you said he was 57.14% correct, does that account for every note in every chord versus the scale, or just your reductions? I'm trying to follow here, but every scale he listed works fine for the chord in an applied composition or performance.

JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

Another thing.
In response to your declaration:

"C13: ... (you can treat this as a Gmin7)."

C13 = C, A#, D, F, A
Gm7 = G, A#, D, F

Why would you treat C13 as Gm7? It makes no sense, sorry.

Nevertheless, you chose some very interesting chords here.

Uh it works because the A# and D in the C13 chord are dissonant and somewhat removed from C, the F and A being less dissonant. The Gm7+9 can harmonically contain all of this "non-C" content, so omitting the A because it's whatever, you are left with the Gm7 chord, a dominant. This is why in jazz you see [TONIC PITCH CLASS HERE]13 used as a dominant. It's the easiest substitute - add the 5th if it isn't in the voicing, drop the tonic (which is implied throughout tonal music anyways since everything is measured intervalically from the tonic), and you have a true minor 7 chord.

Protodome wrote:

"Seriously dude, go learn some music theory" - protodome

I couldn't agree more. There are many perspectives to music, many backgrounds. You can't slap a few scales on a chord and say what does or doesn't line up. It's not about that, especially trying to apply classical analysis to jazz. It's not that you can't do it, but that it's not fair to either school of thought. In addition, check your own work. Keys are near-meaningless in tracker music - it's computed like atonal music is - arps are all relative to 0 (base note), sharps are always, flats are omitted, etc. Trying to force tracker format into the foundation for your argument about what scales fit what chord is baseless - it's not in a musical context at all, it's an abstraction or reduction.

Try playing an instrument, even your qwerty keyboard in something like Famitracker or Ableton, and noodle over some chord progressions. You don't have to be a musician to understand this. It's not about BEING a musician or a tracker guy or whatever. Understand that music is based on how things are related to each other. The possibilities for that are almost endless. You don't have to go to music school to figure it out, either. You could buy a toy piano, a busted trumpet, or actively listen to and transcribe music. But comparing scales to chords and trying to win an argument on the internet will not further your knowledge, just hold you back from it.

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Lake Titicaca
jangler wrote:

Roman numerals aren't used for scale degrees, they're used for chord functions

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_ … umbers.png

jangler wrote:

In fact a C13 chord contains all of the tones of a Gmin7 chord

C13 = C, A#, D, F, A

Gmin7 = G, A#, E, F

Last edited by JaffaCakeMexica (Apr 25, 2016 7:44 pm)

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Alabama
JaffaCakeMexica wrote:
jangler wrote:

Roman numerals aren't used for scale degrees, they're used for chord functions

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_ … umbers.png

jangler wrote:

In fact a C13 chord contains all of the tones of a Gmin7 chord

C13 = C, A#, D, F, A

Gmin7 = G, A#, E, F

Gmin7 is G, A#, D, F bro

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United States

@JaffaCakeMexica

when notes of three or more pitch classes are written on top of each other on sheet music, we call that a "chord".

i'm not sure why you left the third (E) and fifth (G) out of your breakdown of that C13.

edit: looking back to that wiki article in full, i see your point about scale degrees. i'm used to seeing arabic numerals for scale degrees and roman numerals for chord functions. i believe this is the most common practice and, more importantly, what roman numerals were being used for in that thread.

Last edited by jangler (Apr 25, 2016 7:20 pm)

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Brunswick, GA USA
JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

However, I disagree...

Then you're going to fail.

The good news is that it's okay to fail. You're asking a question that takes about two years of classes to be taught.

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UK
JaffaCakeMexica wrote:

Everything in thread.

Right, first let's clarify the construction of the harmonies. The chord names are usually pretty straightforward and refer to the degrees of the scale on which they are built. You’ll love that.

C6/9 - C,E,G,A,D

A C major scale, as you know, is built like this: 1.C, 2.D, 3.E, 4.F, 5.G, 6.A, 7.B, 8.C.

So, C6/9 requires a C major triad, the sixth note of the major scale and the ninth, which is an octave and a tone above the root. D in C major.

C13 - C,E,G,Bb,D,F,A

A 13th chord is the triad, the dominant 7th (generally known in contemporary musical practice as the seventh, the major seventh is the natural seventh of the major scale), the ninth, the eleventh and the thirteenth. You could spell this as C7/4/6/9, but that’s a fucking mess, so we use 13 as a shorthand. 9ths,11ths and 13ths can all come in major, minor and ready salted varieties. They all assume the inclusion of the 7th and, as you get higher up, the 9th and 11th degrees. Just so you know, the major version is C,E,G,B,D,F,A, the minor, C,Eb,G,Bb,D,F,A and the other I’ve mentioned. You’re going to hate the reason Bb is used in the Cmin7, so I’ll save it for later.

FMaj9#11 - F,A,C,E,D,B

It’s a major 9th chord, so you need the 7th degree of the F major scale, the 9th note (or the 2nd) and the sharpened 11th note, which (for those who can only count to 8) is the 4th.

Bb11 - Bb,D,F,Ab,C,Eb

You get the idea by now.

That’s the chord sequence. I also mentioned:

Gm9 - G,Bb,D,F,A

Fm13/Bb - F,Ab,C,Eb,G,Bb,D

Right, we’ve got some minor chords here. Whether you like it or not, in jazz harmony (prevalent in popular music and the kind nearly everyone does on this site without knowing it) a minor chord has nothing to do with the melodic / harmonic minor scales of fucking Bach’s wet dreams. I actually don’t know why there was a change in harmonic nonclemature mid 20th century, but anyway, they’re built around the dorian. Cm7 is C,Eb,G,Ab and the scale you’d use to jam over this would be a C dorian, C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb (or might use, there's cooler changes over this). If you wanted to rip some sick licks using a 1790 vintage C minor scale you’d be rocking to something like Cm9#5.

Flats are generally preferred over sharps in jazz for whatever reason, but here I’ve used flats here for a very specific reason; they’re enharmonically correct. This is a bitch to explain succinctly, but the simplest way of looking at it is, in F major, if I used an A# instead of a Bb, I’d be using A twice in the same scale. Wiki it.

Also, saying you don’t need to learn flats because you use trackers is shooting yourself in the foot. You’re a slave to whoever designed the interface. If you’re an LSDJ user, you’re just Johan Kotlinski’s music bitch. You won’t be able to apply your musical knowledge beyond the tracker interface you’re most used to. Nearly all trackers I’ve used are constructed to adhere to the typical, western musical practice, but make concessions based on UI, memory, cycle usage and screen real-estate.

Here’s the best bit. If you called me out, told me I was wrong and said you were using classical musical counterpoint, you’d be completely right. Most of this wouldn’t really apply. I’d argue you could easily analyse ye old concerto using the common theoretical practice, but I would also totally agree with you.

The final thing I’d like to add. I fucking hate it when someone pulls the authority card due to their perceived superiority on the subject, but I'm doing a PhD in composition. I know what the general academic understanding of music theory is because I have to talk about it in front of judgemental people. You’ve also got FearOfDark who just graduated (with a first class degree) in music from a fantastic UK university and I'd imagine quite a few others here with academic musical backgrounds. Listen to them. It’s not everywhere on the Internet you can learn directly from people who actually know what they’re talking about. Music theory is fucking stupid; steeped in nonsense tradition, dated terminology and nonsensical practice, you should definitely call it out, but militantly defending your ignorance (and attacking others) through lack of contextual understanding is counter-productive. What’s with the point scoring, man?

I haven’t really answered your question, but seriously, there’s a year’s worth of lectures in this. You need to better understand the relationship between chords and scales. It’s a bit of a chicken and egg situation; chords are built on scales, but scales are built on chords. There are lots of people more capable than I of describing this, and will give you a non-jazz spin on music theory.

EDIT - Ah, Maxdolensky already articulated this better.

Last edited by PROTODOME (Apr 25, 2016 9:37 pm)

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Maybe I should have gone to school to become a jazz doctor.

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Brunswick, GA USA
arlen wrote:

Maybe I should have gone to school to become a jazz doctor.

I wouldn't have learned it if it wasn't a core classes requirement but I've seen literally everything on wiki. I kept all the old textbooks in assorted relatives' closets for no reason. wink

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Lake Titicaca

@spacetownsavior:

Your post at the top of this page was excellent and gave a very succinct and eloquent description of the function of music theory.

@protodome:

Thanks for taking the time to write that post.

I can see that jazz and classical thoughts on the subject are quite distinct.
Your post cleared up a lot of my queries and I think I will return to it in future to review some of the concepts that were outlined there. Dont take this the wrong way but personally I'm not really a big fan of jazz. Thanks for doing all that writing there, much appreciated.

I have one more question for you:

If I wanted my piece of music to be based around C harmonic minor, and wanted to write what was necessary to describe C harmonic minor into the key signature at the start of the sheet music, how would I do so?

My problem is that it has both a D and a D#, and also a G and a G# but as I only have one line each for D and G, if I write the sharp accidentals onto those lines then it indicates that all the Ds and Gs should be D#s and G#s. I'd imagine it probably it requires some flats.

C Harmonic minor - C, D, D#, F, G, G#, B

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Lake Titicaca

I hope chipmusic can one day do what this keyboard can...its microtonal stuff, maybe you'd be interested. Pretty much impossible in any tracker software I know of.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=APtJsaPxNgo

Almost impossible to write sheet music for as well.

Last edited by JaffaCakeMexica (Apr 25, 2016 9:55 pm)

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Alabama

Homie it's not about whether or not you are a fan of jazz, you gotta understand it has a system that is nearly universally accepted. So work with it. That's what the whole thread has been about.

As for music notation and your other question - you may  use the key signature for C natural minor (3 flats). All pitch classes (note, regardless of octave) are assumed to have an accidental as marked in the key signature unless otherwise marked. So 3 flats - Bb, Eb, and Ab, would be marked. D# and G# are to be read as their enharmonic equivolents to minimize the use of accidentals. However, B natural will need to be compensated for by using an accidental for every instance of it due to the nature of how keysignatures work.

Last edited by MaxDolensky (Apr 25, 2016 10:06 pm)

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Brighton/Southampton

music theory wasn't created FOR music, it was created BECAUSE of music

Yeah, this.

Personally I like to think of music theory as "learning the rules in order to know how to break them."

Also yeah, music theory is full of contradictions and confusing things to wrap your head around. Just wait until you get into the world of 'double-sharps' and 'double-flats.'

Having studied it academically for years I still feel like I'm winging it tongue

Last edited by Fearofdark (Apr 25, 2016 10:12 pm)

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Brunswick, GA USA
MaxDolensky wrote:

That's what the whole thread has been about.

My impression is that this thread was created when it should have been a direct message. If Protodome answers the 3 flats question, he deserves the "more patient than I" award, if there is one. Is there one?