Decktonic
Offline
Westfield, NJ
Battle Lava wrote:
4mat wrote:

Yeah, personally I think we should be selling our stuff just to "legitimise" it to an extent.

 

4mat wrote:

We want to move it away from being about the equipment we use and more what we're making with it?

How do these two things co-relate?  How does spending money "move it away from being about the equipment we use and more about what were making?"

I don't get this because money is an abstracting medium.

Do you mind elaborating? I don't want to start a war I'm genuinely interested.

I think I can comment on this but I'm sure 4mat will have a better answer.

A lot of chiptunes seem to be made for the purpose of showing what can be done with a limited platform. Look at beeper music for example. In many ways it's "listen to the sounds I was able to make with 1-bit music" rather than "listen to the song I made." Songs are made for competitions and then all given away for free, because the competition is about the challenge of creating on the platform, not the songs themselves. Everything that gets uploaded to 8bc.org says "1x DMG 1x LSDJ" or "home-made drum machine + bent stylophone." Basically, a lot of the chipmusic community is about making music for the sake of proving what can be done with the hardware rather than making music for the sake of making good music.

And when it comes to legitimizing a certain style or type of music, it's important to move beyond the novelty of "look what I can do," where people appreciate a song because it was "hard to make" but wouldn't put it on their playlist with the mainstream stuff because it's still a fringe sound. If I'm playing my DS10 songs at a show, I don't want people in the audience scratching their chins and saying to each other, "oh hey that's a nice snare sound he was able to make with that software," I want them to dance around and have a good time because the songs are good.

Basically, I want people to stop saying "Neil Voss does amazing things with LSDJ" and instead say "Neil Voss makes great music." Moreover, I want people to appreciate it because the music is genuinely good and not just because it's technically impressive.

That's why selling our songs like other types of songs are sold, and saying to people "this is a good song and you should buy it because it's good" rather than "you should buy this because this is done with 2 channels on a single gameboy" is so important.

My $0.02.

chipocrite
Offline
Philadelphia, PA

I agree with what Disasterpeace just said about getting in as many nooks and crannies as possible. For my recent release, first thing I did was create physical copies (I used a service I'm sure some of you know of called Discmakers), mostly because people were actually asking if I had any merch at shows and I was sick of saying no. Not just to make some extra cash but also because it's important to make a lasting impression, and sending a CD home with an audience member is a great thing to do. Yes, this was a little pricey, but I actually should have it paid off soon, and I didn't have to charge too much to do it (At $5 a disc, I had to sell about half of them to get back what I paid. And that's $5 for 6 songs, about 33 minutes of music plus art, etc... seems like a decent deal to me.)

Next thing I did was use CD Baby for digital distribution. For about $30, and a small percentage of each download, they distribute your music everywhere. And I freaking mean everywhere -- iTunes, Amazon, last.fm, etc etc etc -- except somewhere like bandcamp. This was solely for exposure. I think it's important, as others have said, to consider that there might be people out there who do not think much deeper than, "Let's see if this is on iTunes. Oh, it's not? I guess I'll never find it." Obviously enough, you can also sell physical CDs through CD Baby if you want, but I chose not to because they take a cut that was not worth it to me. I'm still selling the discs on my site, and that seems good enough to me for now.

Finally, I distributed the album (albeit a special edition with Cheese N Beer) through bandcamp as well with a "Pay What You Want" price. Once again, this is mostly for exposure and to give people as many options as they want. The PWYW is nice for anyone who has already bought the CD or generally expects their music (not just chip) to be free/cheap. Bandcamp makes a big deal about how they are not exclusive with rights so you can continue to sell through iTunes, etc....

So honestly, why not do any of these things? I realize that some are more expensive than others upfront, and that's a good enough reason not to. But if you can afford all of them and care about exposure, I think figuring out a way to make as many outlets as possible work together can only help you.

PlainFlavored
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It feels kind of tacky to post this, but as of today, Hexadecimator (my CDK release) has had 1,667 downloads. I have 862 total plays on Bandcamp. I've played four shows and an open mic in the last year and a half. In the last 10 years I've spent making music, I've made a grand total of $50 off of it all.

10k
Offline
nɐ˙ɯoɔ˙ʎǝupʎs

J. Arthur Keens deserves 30,000 downloads.

Disasterpeace
Offline
Berkeley, CA

Pause gets the same 1,000 people surfing to it every month. So, yea.

Sycamore Drive
Offline
East Kilbride, Scotland

The self-titled Sycamore Drive EP has had 843 downloads and 3426 plays on the Free Music Archive (since the middle of December 2010) which puts it at over 1000 downloads overall across bandcamp and all the other places it is hosted on. Sales of the EP (through donation) have been £23.49 in total.

nickmaynard
Offline
rochester, ny

Neil Voss makes great music.

Jellica
Offline
England

i have a cd out. i dont think anyone brought it.

Battle Lava
Offline
Decktonic wrote:

... My $0.02 ...

especially

Decktonic wrote:

I want people to appreciate it because the music is genuinely good and not just because it's technically impressive.

and

Decktonic wrote:

That's why selling our songs like other types of songs are sold, and saying to people "this is a good song and you should buy it because it's good" rather than "you should buy this because this is done with 2 channels on a single gameboy" is so important.

I feel like I better understand what your point of view is (and by association 4mat's, let's just say) and what you expect from an audience.  But what I feel like isn't really being explained/explored/discussed is the assumption that

this is a good song = $$$

is problematic to say the least.

Because as I understand it you're argument is stating that something has to be bought to be good.  Or in other words, it's only appreciated, truly, as good until it is bought.  Or that buying something is the ultimate way to classify something as good.

There is no difference between "this is a good song and you should buy it because it's good" and "you should buy this because this is done with 2 channels on a single gameboy" because money is quantitative not qualitative

Money will not prove to you that "people appreciate it because the music is genuinely good and not just because it's technically impressive." They're not related.

**********

btw, I guess I should participate heh

bandcamp plays all-time: just over 2500
downloads all-time: just over 180

with 4 releases which all came out in 2010

Last edited by Battle Lava (Feb 3, 2011 1:44 pm)

smiletron
Offline
Nashville, Tennessee

edit: i said dumb things

Last edited by smiletron (Feb 3, 2011 2:26 pm)

Decktonic
Offline
Westfield, NJ
Battle Lava wrote:

There is no difference between "this is a good song and you should buy it because it's good" and "you should buy this because this is done with 2 channels on a single gameboy" because money is quantitative not qualitative

Money will not prove to you that "people appreciate it because the music is genuinely good and not just because it's technically impressive." They're not related.

Good point! But I think 4mat's point was more just "chipmusic is as good as anything else sold via iTunes, and therefore should be valued the same way by those making it.

WHICH of course opens up a whole religious battle about what music is worth, and how artists should sell their work (or not sell it at all), and money vs. art, sex vs. cash, etc. etc. that I don't think anyone wishes to open up here... even if this is a thread about chipmusic sales.

I'm just saying that if I had paid $0.99 for little-scale's "Come Back To Me," I would be much more satisfied with that purchase than some of the stuff I've actually bought on iTunes. Would selling it instead of giving it away for free "legitimize" it as quality music? Not to those of us who really appreciate such art. But a lot of the "common consumers" think that way. I've seen the following two statements on music blogs many times:

In reference to something available for sale: "You should totally buy this, it's great."

In reference to something available for free: "This would totally be worth buying, but it's actually available for free." Also "Even though this is free, it's really good and you should check it out."

As I said, I know we don't think that way but it's not about how the artist thinks, it's about how the listener thinks.

Battle Lava
Offline

Well if people think they are legitimizing something by purchasing it, even if they are not, then what matters is what they think, and nothing else, because it supports the argument?  Because it makes you feel legitimate? (not necessarily you Decktonic but a more global "you") That doesn't seem right.

I feel like talk about "listeners" and "common consumers" is condescending, and I don't want to go there.

I still don't buy the legitimacy argument, but I'm definitely open to discussing it more.
(note: i think chip music is legitimate, i mean i don't believe it's only legitimate if bought)

But I understand this thread is suppose to be about numbers.

OK, last edit, promise ;p

My point for arguing against the legitimacy stance, which is not a new stance, isn't to play devils advocate but to expose it for not being about legitimacy at all, and to replace it with a stance that would actually be about legitimacy and expose chip musicians to a larger audience.

Also, that when people say they are seeking legitimacy through purchases, that's not really what they are seeking. Or at least I hope not because that's not what they're getting.

Last edited by Battle Lava (Feb 3, 2011 2:53 pm)

Decktonic
Offline
Westfield, NJ

It's not that people think they are legitimizing something by purchasing it... not at all. It's that people think something is legitimate because it costs more than free. All this applies to before the sale, not after (in this case a "sale" is also someone downloading something for free).

I think ultimately you have to put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't know anything about making music or the music "industry" (or scene or community or whatever you would call it). I'm not trying to be condescending by calling people "listeners" or "common consumers," I'm just trying to underline the fact that we think very differently from people who don't make music. If I told a friend of mine that I make music, but that I give it away for free and I play shows, but they are free shows, they would probably think I'm an amateur (in the negative sense) and that I must not be very good if people wouldn't pay to see me. Moreover, if I told my mom that I make music, but I don't make any money from it, then she would say that I'm an amateur and that it's not a real profession because people aren't paying me for anything. They would be jumping to a conclusion, and have no idea of my real reasons for doing so, but when you put your music online and someone happens across it, there's no explanation attached... the conclusion they would jump to is all they have.

In the end most people define "professional" vs. "amateur/hobbyist" as whether or not you make money from it. That applies to everything. And people think professionals are better than amateurs.

In thinking about this more I know what legitimizes something for me... what people say about it. I knew little-scale was worth checking out because a lot of people were saying he makes great music and that I should go get "Error Repeat." The opinion of others, especially tastemakers (blogs, DJs, etc.) and more importantly, my friends, is what influences which bands I'll check out and what I think of them. I don't like The XX, but I know a lot of people who do, and therefore I consider them to be good at what they do, because they have a lot of fans.

It's interesting because in the end, I think that's the real answer to the issue of "what makes a song legitimate," what people think of it. But this is an interesting discussion because it makes you think about the attitude people have towards free stuff vs. not-free stuff... "someone's giving away perfume? Must be some new product or maybe it's not very good. Maybe I won't even bother taking one." vs. "This perfume costs $500? Must be high-class stuff! I wish I could afford it." In the end, this still applies to cases where a potential listener comes across something they haven't heard of, and none of their friends have... in that case the "what people think of it" doesn't apply at all, unless it means people don't think of it therefore it might not be good. Then it becomes a matter of how it's packaged... is it on a record label? How much does it cost? What's the cover art like? etc.

That's the last I have to say for this... as I said, it's not really the answer here, but I think the argument has some valid points.

ant1
Offline
uhajdafdfdfa

hey if legitimate music costs money i'd like to stay illegitimate for ever
it's pretty hard to believe i just read a thread with a backlash against FREE MUSIC

Battle Lava
Offline

I like what you said here:

Decktonic wrote:

It's interesting because in the end, I think that's the real answer to the issue of "what makes a song legitimate," what people think of it

Although it sounds so derping simple, word of mouth as a legitimizing medium seems more... legitimate lol.
The problem, or (to be careful) what I think is a problem, is that people value something in terms of monetary value as if it's an intrinsic value, when it's not.  Anyway blah blah I'm not really adding to my own argument anymore.

Maybe for me it's just hard to see outside my own box, so to speak, since I highly value free things. I honestly don't understand overlooking something because it's free.


ant1 wrote:

hey if legitimate music costs money i'd like to stay illegitimate for ever
it's pretty hard to believe i just read a thread with a backlash against FREE MUSIC

I know, right?

Last edited by Battle Lava (Feb 3, 2011 3:41 pm)

Subway Sonicbeat
Offline
Brazil
PULSELOOPER wrote:

My regular job pays for food, clothing, bills and sake. But fortunately, about 30% of my gigs are paid (and that's a big thing in Brazil). This is the money I invest on gear and I plan to put on a 7'' single in the future. So yes, money is necessary.

Since i live in Brazil too, this aply to me as well. I bought my lsdj cart and the dingoo with it.

Now I'm working (seriously, i'm at work) and I'm gonna buy a mixer from pulselooper. Investing in something that will make it better for me to make music.

Now, selling or not selling doesn't aplly everywhere. In usa is different from here. People don't buy it, myself included. All I buy is LP records. I can't even remember the last CD I bought, it has been soooo long (probably 2004 or so). Piracy here will continue (inserting coin).

As I would love to get money from my music (which I got, you can't imagine), I still have to work to pay the rent, buy food, etc. As much as I would love to live from my music, it's impossible now.

We here in Brazil got interesting results with culture places who have money (either from government or private initiative). But concerning the public, some cities I played were complete failures while others had a lot of people in the gig.

In my next gig I will bring some physical copies, some sort of best of of my music, draw some covers and sell it. I think I will get at least the money for the beers I will drink and the subway I'll get to go home. Which is all I want now, actually.

tldr: Gigs is where the thing is, not selling music at the web IMO. Sell cds at your gigs or to people you know. I know it doesn't matter the quality, if you sell to your friends or acquitances, even hand-made cds printed from a shitty printer will work (I know this works).


Mind note: I need to promote my project better in the future.

Last edited by Subway Sonicbeat (Feb 3, 2011 3:43 pm)