RatShack
Offline
Philly
yogi wrote:
RatShack wrote:

Isn't GENMDM just MIDI -> commands via some serial protocol over a joystick port -> Register writes -> Sound output?

The source for SMSM is pretty bare bones, I'd imagine GENMDM is the same way.

Yes as I understand it. The Teensey does all the work. The Sega ROM just loads registers.
EDIT: after a basic read thru of the source code, the main loop of the GenMDM run on the 68000. There is a 'Z80 driver' loaded into the Z80 ram but the 68000 seems to do all the writes to the YM and PSG.
Yogi

There's obviously demand for this thing and it's relatively simple... what's stopping anyone else from developing something similar?  Lack of console development experience?

yogi
Offline
Jelly Stone park, MD USA
RatShack wrote:
yogi wrote:

Yes as I understand it. The Teensey does all the work. The Sega ROM just loads registers.
EDIT: after a basic read thru of the source code, the main loop of the GenMDM run on the 68000. There is a 'Z80 driver' loaded into the Z80 ram but the 68000 seems to do all the writes to the YM and PSG.
Yogi

There's obviously demand for this thing and it's relatively simple... what's stopping anyone else from developing something similar?  Lack of console development experience?

  I wouldn't say that it's a lack of experience so much but more to the limits of the hardware and the user's goals. People coming from a game dev or demoscene POV want tools to aid compos. opting for a comfortable tracker cross-platform tool.
  There are far more direct, live mode, type software for 'retro' computers because of the better UI. Very hard to effect fine control of PSG or YM registers with just a game pad or two.
  So most approaches take the cross-platform style with the goal of producing a ROM for HW playback rather then live control on the console.  But the lessons learned with LSDJ have been spreading to other platforms so we're seeing more native tracker projects.
  While the GenMDM, Chip Mastro and midiNES have limits because of the constraints of midi and how to map all the variables, the appeal grows as the community shifts it's expectations. More and more musicians are focusing on live shows and want to get away from 'push the start button and look busy' on stage. Live shows are becoming more common now then 5-10 years ago when Demo parities were more common, so interest is fueling more innovations and demand.
Just my thoughts,
Yogi

cyberic
Offline
yogi wrote:

after a basic read thru of the source code

you got the source code?

yogi
Offline
Jelly Stone park, MD USA
cyberic wrote:
yogi wrote:

after a basic read thru of the source code

you got the source code?

Sorry, I was referring to the Source that is part of Littlescale's thesis, the link is a few posts back (15? posts). He may have changed the code used in the first run from this version, but I doubt it. It's very basic and the real work is done within the Teensey.
Sorry for the confusion,
Yogi
EDIT: so out of intrest I just compared the SMSM bin from the Thesis and the released SMSM ROM posted to Littlescale's blog. HxD reports them identical, I know we may be talking 'apples and oranges' but in the case of the GenMDM ROM I would bet that they are the same also.

Last edited by yogi (Feb 2, 2015 3:49 pm)

Jazzmarazz
Offline
Michigan
yogi wrote:
cyberic wrote:

you got the source code?

Sorry, I was referring to the Source that is part of Littlescale's thesis, the link is a few posts back (15? posts). He may have changed the code used in the first run from this version, but I doubt it. It's very basic and the real work is done within the Teensey.
Sorry for the confusion,
Yogi
EDIT: so out of intrest I just compared the SMSM bin from the Thesis and the released SMSM ROM posted to Littlescale's blog. HxD reports them identical, I know we may be talking 'apples and oranges' but in the case of the GenMDM ROM I would bet that they are the same also.

Interest eh? Taking interest in oneself or in the betterment of others is frowned upon here. Better be warned not to break the mold.
Burn this bridge I may; we 'interested' folk grow weary from standing idly by while the hypocrisy rules. There are too many factors, none of whom seem to realize a consensus. Each making decisions with only one's own input and interest in mind; freely deciding what is acceptable and what is taboo; turning a blind eye when they see fit and shooting the messenger.

For your information the two are in fact identical, shy of one byte which lies outside of a both the header and program.

If this is the way it must be, we can bitch a moan about a problem without fixing it. Ironically enough, this only drives interest in that which you condemn.

Arricat
Offline
Glasgow

(edit dumb post)

Last edited by Arricat (Sep 17, 2020 9:35 pm)

Jazzmarazz
Offline
Michigan
Arricat wrote:

I'm just hoping that someone leaks the software/firmware soon.
It's technically abandonware anyway.

It need not be leaked. Littles released it ages ago. You're right though, abandoned is the correct term.

Arricat
Offline
Glasgow

The ROM too?

Jazzmarazz
Offline
Michigan

In this case, He publically uploaded both the compiled code and source code, schematics and board files.
My argument is that the community has two options. One: to do a small community-only group printing of the board at the cost plus labor or two: someone can continue to sell them for hundreds of dollars on ebay. Option three is to continue to sit on our hands and justify Little's behavior. I will no longer sympathize with the next person who catches his own tail in his teeth and acts surprised. Time bears repeating and this is not the first reiteration.

Jazzmarazz
Offline
Michigan

I didn't want to say "rom" but yeah, the rom too. He never explicitly stated that others could use it, but I think it goes without saying just as much as his orders went without filling.

The honest reason I got rid of my own copy was because I was underwhelmed, but we're still a little ways off from having a second option available.

Last edited by Jazzmarazz (Feb 3, 2015 3:00 am)

stargazer
Offline
SLC, UT

Let me get this straight: Someone based in Denver is producing these and selling them on ebay. DSC is suspected, but not confirmed. He has not defended himself against the allegations. At the same time, yogi discovered that the full source for basically everything was posted online as part of littlescale's master's thesis, so now presumably anyone could make one of these with little to no effort involved.

Excuse me while I go throw up. This is disgusting.

yogi
Offline
Jelly Stone park, MD USA
stargazer wrote:

Let me get this straight: Someone based in Denver is producing these and selling them on ebay. DSC is suspected, but not confirmed. He has not defended himself against the allegations. At the same time, yogi discovered that the full source for basically everything was posted online as part of littlescale's master's thesis, so now presumably anyone could make one of these with little to no effort involved.

Excuse me while I go throw up. This is disgusting.

yes, thats the short story. The seller in Denver may be legit, who know. It is possibly he had bought 10+ from the first run. (unlikely but...)
The elements to re-create the interface are on the web 'for all to see'.I for one view the situation as a twist on the fair use of ROM dumps by a cart owner, only that the pre ordered cart/hardware was never delivered.
The subject of a community project would be a banned topic, but if your soldering iron kung-fu is strong there's nothing to stop you.
Perhaps a general purpose Teensy carrier board with a midi socket; useful for all manner of projects? Or is this banned, I don't know.
yogi

PS OT @ jazzmarazz Thanks for the great tut over at EMUParadise. Just found it today looking for Gen cart mods, very helpful.

Last edited by yogi (Feb 3, 2015 6:00 am)

rot
Offline
UK / FR

Oh god, this thread is just tragic. This whole minefield is why non-open software/hardware sucks.

To be honest if I had paid for the interface and not received it for this long, I would just make the damn thing myself its pretty simple, and the only barrier up until now has been the availability of the genesis 'firmware'. (ie, the rom). The hardware side is basically just an arduino connected to the joystick port, guides for which are already available for the sms i think, on littlescales blog.

I never ordered one when they were on sale so I would feel kinda weird just building it, knowing that little-scale explicitly never intended for it to be diy/open source. Aside from this bullshit incident he's contributed a lot to the chiptune community. I really wouldn't wanna 'rip him off' or like step on anyone's toes, cause he seems like a cool guy who maybe just didn't organise his business well or something.

I think the best thing that would happen now is if little-scale just did a lsdj-style license where he asks for a donation in return for all the compiled code, and leaves it to the user to get it onto the console. Or just opens up the source properly like trash80 did with arduinoboy?

Also until he at least says his opinion on people dl-ing the firmware and making it themselves (let alone an apology/explanation) i guess this project is abandonware, no?

Fuck it, maybe someone should just 'reverse engineer' and open-source version of the project... And then at least the peeps that ordered one could discuss and build it themselves without being made to feel like a pirate.

cyberic
Offline
rot wrote:

Or just opens up the source properly like trash80 did with arduinoboy?

It would be the best thing, since there are still bugs in the firmware, especially with using it with FMDrive.

Jazzmarazz
Offline
Michigan
yogi wrote:

PS OT @ jazzmarazz Thanks for the great tut over at EMUParadise. Just found it today looking for Gen cart mods, very helpful.

Glad you found it helpful! Feel free to post there asking me any questions you might have, though I'm sure you're more than capable. Welcome to EP.

yogi
Offline
Jelly Stone park, MD USA
Jazzmarazz wrote:
yogi wrote:

PS OT @ jazzmarazz Thanks for the great tut over at EMUParadise. Just found it today looking for Gen cart mods, very helpful.

Glad you found it helpful! Feel free to post there asking me any questions you might have, though I'm sure you're more than capable. Welcome to EP.

Talk to you there, got a minor question or two.
yogi