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A gray world of dread
calmdownkidder wrote:
µB wrote:

egr, last.fm should be pretty useful to compare listener stats for online releases, at least by comparing quotas.

Not really, I know plenty of people who don't have a last.fm account :\

Of course. It's about as representative as TV quotes- still useful for making relative comparisons.

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IL, US
µB wrote:
calmdownkidder wrote:

Not really, I know plenty of people who don't have a last.fm account :\

Of course. It's about as representative as TV quotes- still useful for making relative comparisons.

not as much, the tv ratings, they make sure to get a decent cross sampling across the range of demographics, while last.fm is just a whoever uses it, uses it kind of thing

for example, lets say last.fm's user base is somehow (and its not) all 13-19 year olds...if artist x has a wider audience among teens than artist y, but artist y has an even bigger lead among people in their 30s, so has more overall listeners in real life. yet last.fm shows artist x as having more listeners and plays as their main audience uses last.fm while artist y's does not

tv ratings and all statistical data that is looked at as scientifically valid had to follow pretty strict guidelines for measuring and collecting, which last.fm falls very short of


edit: this is a fine example, look at the total number of listeners on lady gaga, the beatles & muse

muse seems to have more listeners that use last.fm than the beatles

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Los Angeles

Even if the labels posted their downloads and/or sales, you'd still not get the pirated numbers. I think there is a crazy ratio of pirated albums vs sold (10+ to1?). If an artist has 500 sales, but has 10,000 pirated copies...do they get a gold pirate ship plaque? lol

I know many chippers don't sell their work so this doesn't apply to everyone, but for those that do, its a pirates bounty on the sea of internets!

Last edited by 8bitweapon (Jun 25, 2010 4:24 pm)

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A gray world of dread

lol, I didn't intend this to become a discussion about the statistical validity of sample groups.

Just for the sake of it: I'd argue that the overlapping group of last.fm users and chipmusic-listeners is bigger than that with Beatles-listeners (or whatever). The bigger the overlap, the more representative the numbers. You can hardly compare major label releases with an internet centered community like chipmusic.

Anyways, the previous discussion was more interesting, so just ignore my contrib wink

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Lawrenceville, GA

I guess back to the original question: from "sometime in 2007" to now all my MP3s on my website have been downloaded between 800 and 2600 (on average, some exceptions up to like 8k) times, and the NSFs are like between 100 and 800. 

Out There and The Voyage (both on the same album) are at 6500, and fighting for control is at 5500.

Here's my nonsense at last.fm

and Light's Ultimate Solution and Wily Capsule are at 1746 and 5678 views, respectively

edit: i have no idea how to get numbers on how many times people have downloaded my 2 albums at 8bitpeoples.  It'd be interesting to know :X

Last edited by RushJet1 (Jun 25, 2010 5:02 pm)

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Florida

The only time I sell my stuff is when I invest a large amount of cash/time into the production of it. Out of 16 releases, I've only sold two. The chiptune release sold next to nothing (it's free now), while the noise-pop album sold well.

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Tokyo, Japan
10k wrote:

~With reputation comes the value of your product.
~With access comes reputation.
~People will always have a way to get your music for free.
~CDs/music sells better at shows in my experience.
~A lot of music buyers buy for packaging/aesthetic.
~Each artist/act's needs/ideals/music/location/etc should decide how material is best written/recorded/released.

While I totally agree with Tom, I feel he might be selling himself a little short. I would break this list down a little, expand it a bit and take a look at why I think he is doing such a good job. This little train of thought will probably come off a little mercenary which isn't the intention. I think a couple of points really deserve highlighting.

***People will always have a way to get your music for free***

Tom has obviously seen the value in having as many people as possible listening to his music.

***A lot of music buyers buy for packaging/aesthetic***

I would expand the packaging/aesthetic list to include cultural identity. Perhaps not a major addition but I think one worth bearing in mind.


1 - Quality + Exposure = Reputation/Value

Tom has assured the first by producing seriously high quality music and the second by gigging like a fucking maniac (something like 40 or 50 gigs in the last 2 years). Also, his site is social networked up the wazoo and updates with interesting, personal info about what he is doing with his music.

2 - Fans/Customers

Ok, so what type of people like 10k freemen? I would see 2 or 3 groups

a)People who like his music and will pay for a physical CD at shows.
b)People who like his music and will buy a CD online.
b)People who like his music and will pay for a download.
c)People who like his music but don't want to pay for it.

I think we like all four of these groups, a,b and c will give us money and d will probably spread the word to other people who might fall into groups a,b and c. All 4 groups are likely to come to shows and we like people at shows.

3 - Reputation/Value + Access = Potential profit

Ok, so we now know more or less 10k's fans are lets see how they are catered for,

For Group A, he has CDs at shows.
For Group B, he has CDs available online.
For Group C, he has a donate button.
For Group D, he has free downloads.

All of the above are available on a nice clean and tidy website.

10k wrote:

My plan was to have online chip communities download my music and to primarily sell my CDs at shows and have smaller numbers purchase online. The model seems to be working for me and I hope it continues to do so. People seem to want to buy shit from you at shows if they liked your set, even if you tell them they can get it free online.

This was 10k's goal and I think he has gone about it really well so and indie music Gold Star for him! In the future I would predict we see from 10k

- T Shirts sold online and at gigs.
- More quality Music distributed as widely as possible both paid and unpaid.
- Live EP???
- More gigs and hopefully shows outside of Aus
- Back catalog of music kept in print so people who discover his music a year from now can buy it.

Last edited by Lazerbeat (Jun 26, 2010 3:08 am)

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Godzilladelph

fuck popularity, fuck 'scenes' just make what you like how you like it. if other people like your work thats cool too

though this is probably the reason why no one has heard of my songs tongue

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Abandoned on Fire

Since there's talk of marketing, I'd like to hear about "marketing" to venues... bars, basements, college auditoriums... why should they book you?

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Anaheim, California

this is an interesting read, the discussion on this site is great

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BOSTON
egr wrote:

Since there's talk of marketing, I'd like to hear about "marketing" to venues... bars, basements, college auditoriums... why should they book you?

now, by marketing *to* venues, do you mean to ask "how do I book" ? because there are some things that can definitely help you out. and others that can really harm your chances.

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Abandoned on Fire

I guess im asking how do you present/represent yourself when booking?  Thats not really marketing i suppose.

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nɐ˙ɯoɔ˙ʎǝupʎs
egr wrote:

Since there's talk of marketing, I'd like to hear about "marketing" to venues... bars, basements, college auditoriums... why should they book you?

I've found that this line works: "If you book me I will be bringing X number of people into your venue, to watch me play and pay money for your products and services."

It sounds dumb to say, but the trick is having people to watch you. Friends are a good start, especially if they like your music, they will in turn bring their friends. In order to build a live following you have to start with mates, even if they stop coming later down the line. They are the people who will tell you what works and what doesn't in your set as well!

I have a few mates in local bands. We always make sure we turn up to each others gigs to be sure there are at least 10 people in the room that are 100% there to see whoever out of us is playing that night. To have people at every gig who sing the lyrics to your songs, or know when things are dropping looks great to a venue. It also helps convince people you are awesome.

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Abandoned on Fire
10k wrote:
egr wrote:

Since there's talk of marketing, I'd like to hear about "marketing" to venues... bars, basements, college auditoriums... why should they book you?

I've found that this line works: "If you book me I will be bringing X number of people into your venue, to watch me play and pay money for your products and services."

It sounds dumb to say, but the trick is having people to watch you. Friends are a good start, especially if they like your music, they will in turn bring their friends. In order to build a live following you have to start with mates, even if they stop coming later down the line. They are the people who will tell you what works and what doesn't in your set as well!

I have a few mates in local bands. We always make sure we turn up to each others gigs to be sure there are at least 10 people in the room that are 100% there to see whoever out of us is playing that night. To have people at every gig who sing the lyrics to your songs, or know when things are dropping looks great to a venue. It also helps convince people you are awesome.

That's just crazy enough to work!  wink

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Los Angeles

Maybe someone could start a thread dedicated to people posting their top 3 download figures or something? Keep it simple ya know?

Example:

SONG TITLE                  Date Released                   Downloads
Lewd Title here               07.18.209                           7,231,314
My 1st LSDJ tune            01.12.2002                          10,111
Cover song #23              11.22.2010                           1,111

Last edited by 8bitweapon (Jun 29, 2010 4:27 pm)

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Riverton, Utah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv-HKv2Ndgo

SONG TITLE                                      Date Released           Downloads
where is my mind (8bit remix)             May 23, 2010             146,683 hits

I know it's on youtube, and I know it's technically a cover. I had over 130,000 hits within a week period. The rest of them have come trickling in. I offered the song for free and am kicking myself in the pants for it. Why? Well friends, let me tell you...

If this were registered on a paysite (itunes, etc.) for the price of one U.S. dollar, I believe I would be quite pleased with the results. People will buy a single if they really really like it. Most people I know won't buy entire digital copies, they will just buy the two or three songs they liked from the album. If 1 out of 100 of these hits dropped a single dollar for the single (fairly likely) I'd be a grand and a half richer. Even if it were only one in a thousand, that's still a considerable amount more than zero dollars, the current net yield.

If it's hot, why not sell it? People pay to enjoy things all the time.
Does giving it away for free constitute a moral high ground? Doubt it.
If something even remotely like this happens again, will I take advantage of the situation? You betcha.