chipmusic.org is an online community in respect and relation to chip music, art and its parallels.
You are not logged in. Please login or register.
ha this thread really snow balled...
I'd be interested in putting down on something like this, but what do you think the general cost to develop a program like this would be?
(maybe this is more a question for shiru)
Last edited by mercurius fm (Dec 24, 2010 9:11 am)
It would be a good start to have someone who actually wants to do the project. Because it really would be a labor of love.
I don't see why that is necessarily important. As long as you can trust that the person is competent and willing enough I don't why he must do it "out of love". You could also add to the "contract" that the application s-hould be released as open source when done, so others can improve on it.
Then getting a taste of what kind of work they're capable of doing, with perhaps some simple demo's they've done up of potential native software for said hardware...
Are you aware that Shiru is the author of TFM Music Maker? http://shiru.untergrund.net/software.shtml Also see the code section.
I don't doubt that for a second Shiru is competent enough to do a project like this. The problem here is the logistics of the donation, ie to collect and transfer the money. The latter is a problem in itself since he lives in Russia; many simple solutions, like PayPal, don't work.
He'll, if some managed the raise the money I'm sure someone repeatable could wire him the money. How much money is the next logistical question...
Developing costs are highly depends from what is required. Is it involves custom hardware (could seriously increase costs), how much features are needed and how complex they are (considering hardware limitations), which interface (generally text-based interface with a lot of hex numbers could be done much faster than something visual with knobs, graphs etc). Then approximation how much time the thing would take should be done, based on previous projects, multiplied to medium programmer's wage (it is $1200-1400/month here, lowest is 500, top are 2000+), and total price negotiated. I think, for this case it should be some certain price for some certain work done, not just payment for time spent, with payments in few parts, per milestones.
How much time it could take. TFM MM in very basic form, which allowed to make music, with simplest instrument editor, with pattern editor, without a lot of service functions including copy/paste, was made in less than a month (don't forget, it is an app for powerful PC, made with RAD tools, and it is FM only). Service functions were added in next three years, in few takes of 1-2 weeks of active work each - 80/20 rule in action. There was half of year between start of work and first public version, although active work was ~2 months, I guess. Considering there are no RAD tools for SMD, and it far less powerful than PC (so you can't do things in dumb or bruteforce way), my estimate, without thinking on details, is that you could expect some very basic thing done in a month, some usable in ~three months, and then everything depends from feature requests.
Also, you could check how much other native console trackers development took. Recent examples: NTRQ took 5 months from start to first public release, and Pulsar about 6 months, these projects were done in part time, but by very experienced man.
Last edited by Shiru (Dec 24, 2010 8:39 pm)
low-gain wrote:It would be a good start to have someone who actually wants to do the project. Because it really would be a labor of love.
I don't see why that is necessarily important. As long as you can trust that the person is competent and willing enough I don't why he must do it "out of love". You could also add to the "contract" that the application s-hould be released as open source when done, so others can improve on it.
low-gain wrote:Then getting a taste of what kind of work they're capable of doing, with perhaps some simple demo's they've done up of potential native software for said hardware...
Are you aware that Shiru is the author of TFM Music Maker? http://shiru.untergrund.net/software.shtml Also see the code section.
I don't doubt that for a second Shiru is competent enough to do a project like this. The problem here is the logistics of the donation, ie to collect and transfer the money. The latter is a problem in itself since he lives in Russia; many simple solutions, like PayPal, don't work.
+1
Also, Russia brings a problem. Old Country'd!
Just playing Devil's advocate here: What is the advantage of having a native Sega tracker when FM synthesis can be found in many, many other Yamaha products? Is it just to say "I make music on a Genesis," or is there some compelling argument I'm missing? I can see why the c64 (among others) would be highly sought after, but from what I gather you can achieve near-exact results elsewhere with this.
Please school my ass. 
I would like a portable lsdj style tracker for making self contained fm psg and 16bit sample based tracks on the go.. It would be a nice self contained synth workstation for production... ... If you can point me to something the size of a nomad with those same audio specs, I'll buy it.
That being said, with shirus price requirements .. I don't think the scene has that type of resources for what honestly is a niche tracker insider a smaller niche scene.
Last edited by herr_prof (Dec 24, 2010 11:03 pm)
Genesis can't play 16 bit samples.
Take a look at SunVox. It is free/cheap, it is available for few mobile devices, it has 2-op FM synth, filters, samples, etc.
Just playing Devil's advocate here: What is the advantage of having a native Sega tracker when FM synthesis can be found in many, many other Yamaha products? Is it just to say "I make music on a Genesis," or is there some compelling argument I'm missing? I can see why the c64 (among others) would be highly sought after, but from what I gather you can achieve near-exact results elsewhere with this.
Please school my ass.
Honestly, for me, just so I can use the Nomad for more than just playback/games. Oh well. SunVox makes sense!
There's also a new MidiBox coming out soon in 2011... First there was SammicSID, soon there will be SammichFM!
I'm on the list to have 2 of the first available kits. I'll let you know how it sounds when i finish them.
oh em gee, that is badass.
Just playing Devil's advocate here: What is the advantage of having a native Sega tracker when FM synthesis can be found in many, many other Yamaha products? Is it just to say "I make music on a Genesis," or is there some compelling argument I'm missing?
Do you know of a better way of programming a yamaha fm chip? The dx7 is a little expensive. I have a cool yamaha fm chip in a circuit bent keyboard...but i can't like touch my fingers to the pins to make it do what i want. It sounds so cool, if there were a cheap way to do it i would.
There are FM chips in every old Sound Blaster compatible card - OPL2/3. You just need old enough PC or an old enough notebook with built-in sound card. There are a lot MS-DOS trackers for these chips, they works under Windows 9x as well.
I somehow forgot that YM2612 was actually used in one home computer - FM Towns. It is japanese and not imported anyway.
Just playing Devil's advocate here: What is the advantage of having a native Sega tracker when FM synthesis can be found in many, many other Yamaha products? Is it just to say "I make music on a Genesis," or is there some compelling argument I'm missing? I can see why the c64 (among others) would be highly sought after, but from what I gather you can achieve near-exact results elsewhere with this.
Please school my ass.
I want the real hardware not only the FM but also the PSG sound and any sampling/drums ability. The reason being that working on the real hardware offers to you a unmatchable authentic sound and an unmatchable creative experience that you get with the hardware. I go through this same argument with people who dont understand why i buy analog synths from the 80s instead of using plugins.
i for one would be interested in making a substantial investment in a software like this for genesis. but with little-scale's hardware/software interface (potentially) around the corner its a hard choice.
Cheap FM synthesizer modules were already discussed on that other place.
Here's your link. http://8bc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=16402 Merry Christmas.
Are you aware that Shiru is the author of TFM Music Maker? http://shiru.untergrund.net/software.shtml Also see the code section.
I don't doubt that for a second Shiru is competent enough to do a project like this. The problem here is the logistics of the donation, ie to collect and transfer the money. The latter is a problem in itself since he lives in Russia; many simple solutions, like PayPal, don't work.
Nope. Excuse my ignorance. Never heard of him or that program.
I just dont want to see another Jose Torres or Wayfar happen.
And when i start to see people who have no clue what the hell they're talking about start to offer up donations and blindly wanting to give money away for something that isn't even in a prototyped, or beta version. totally rubs me the wrong way.
Contracting someone to do something is one thing. Shiru is right in his thinking about not doing it w/o a contract. If not out of love then via contract. makes perfect sense to me.
My argument is simply to those who just get all excited about things and just start saying.. "can i donate" "can i pre-order" etc etc.
Anyways.. this is so far off topic it's stupid. *Laughs*
If a genesis program came about i still probably wouldnt' use it.
I'm tired of dealing w/ old unreliable hardware. SammichFM would be my choice.
or just buying something such as a DX7.. otherwise a pc's can produce a good enough sound
to get your message across for the common listener. 
Because In the end, it's about the music. I care more about the song, rather than how it was written or what it was written on.
Cheers.
My argument is simply to those who just get all excited about things and just start saying.. "can i donate" "can i pre-order" etc etc.
I haven't seen any of that in this thread yet. Well, I might have, depending on what you mean with "etc." 
Personally, I wouldn't use a tracker on the console itself either. Something like TFM throwing real-time sound register changes at a mega drive through, say, Krik's USB transfer cable would be much nicer.
