SadPanda
Offline
Chicago IL, USA

I can never say anything bad about streams because the other day I got to see toriena and NNNNNNNNN "live", and that is good enough reason for me to support them.

Also, I enjoy the irony of how streaming live shows is pretty advanced technologically, but basically the only genre of music doing it in such a regular, organized format is one that prides itself on the lack of advanced technology. I use the word organized pretty loosely, but the clipstream guys have a pretty solid set up going compared to what I've seen from other webshows.

Last edited by SadPanda (Dec 18, 2012 8:32 pm)

Glenntai
Offline
Hudson, MA

Chunter, when I'm not doing 80 things I'll check out the article, but my quick skim of it might have some valuable ideas in there...  Not sure on the emoji concept, but I guess I'd have to see it before getting the grasp of it.

Jotie, while you would imagine that to work, our first show as Clipstream was on a Sunday had a lot of people wanting to shift schedules because of work/school/oranges/whatever.  It became clear that everyone involved didn't want to worry about staying up too late on a Sunday, and the same would likely be for any time that isn't a weekend.  It's also partially why we've kept the videos on our stream--  so people who missed out or had stuff to do can see who they missed.

One thing that's a plus about ustream is that you can check out our shows via mobile devices, so you could be on the go and catch the show inbetween things you're doing (thus earlier when I was talking about catching the people with uncommon windows of time for viewing.)

Also, thanks for the compliment, SadPanda!  It's a relief to hear, considering most of the time we're thinking about how to fix things and how to make the show even better.

The Laohu
Offline
Utah
SketchMan3 wrote:

I always type stuff like "Wooo!" in the chat box at times in which it'd be appropriate to say such at a live show. It's more fun to me that way.

I must admit, when watching Roboctopus' set on WWCW the other day, I was simultaneously sending similar "Awwwjeah!" and "Oh no he didn't!"s to my brother and I definitely had more fun that way.

herr_prof
Offline
Unsubscribe

edit: probably overly harsh

Last edited by herr_prof (Dec 19, 2012 1:42 am)

Fatal Labyrinth
Offline
Austin, TX

I think there's a lot of potential for streaming to lower the borders between artist and audience and encourage more conversation between the two groups, but it won't replace concerts or physical workshops, both of which would be better done physically or through recordings; it's much easier to get consistent quality on a recording when you're not worrying about streaming it (kills FPS, audio quality).

For concerts, unless there's some killer VJ stuff going on, the visual aspect generally isn't necessary. Put a few condenser mics around for atmosphere and make it an audio-only stream going off the mixer or bootleg it and upload it later. Another issue with concert recordings the chip community suffers from a lot is that the live elements of shows (i.e. what's separating it from listening to the record in your house) are primarily visual or not unique enough to make the act of watching a stream/recording worth the effort. Larger shows like Blipfest lend themselves more to recordings since they're good for discovering new artists, but the same appeal could be had through a radio show, or just poking around here. (Arecibo's chip shows have been doing that pretty well for me.)

Workshops could definitely be streamed, though many of them don't have much of a need for direct audience interaction. It'd also be difficult to read and answer every question you receive while presenting a power-point to a bunch of other people. Much of that could be alleviated through recording the workshop and having its presenter answer questions via a forum, much like this one. Smaller scale ones done from homes have more potential to work as the person doing them would have a much easier time answering questions and interacting with multiple people.

I think that for people looking to do streaming chiptune stuff, good examples to look at would be day9 and Shinsei Kamattechan (the latter of which is more applicable since they're musicians). day9's streams are, essentially, Q&A sessions between him and his audience. Kamattechan does largely the same thing, though the antics and unique personality of their lead singer/guitarist/songwriter Noko tend to draw in more people and keep them interested in the stream. This style of streaming could easily work for chiptune musicians as well, though it'd require interesting content to back it up. If little-scale was sitting on a stream talking about rad hardware stuff, I'd watch that. If you're just sitting at a desk streaming music and not saying anything, no one's going to watch. You have to have the personality to back it up, and for a lot of people it's hard to get that sort of personality without something like a concert to amplify it. I've done decent stage shows before since I work well in that setting, but I can't stream because my personality isn't interesting enough to make it work in a casual setting without someone else to talk at. It's sort of like how good Let's Players tend to be in duos (Retsupurae, Chip & Ironicus). Having multiple people in a stream helps a lot.

Basically, there's a niche for concert streams, but for archiving quality it'd be better to bootleg the mixer than anything, since the audience loses out on too much of the live atmosphere for it to work on a stream (at least for me). Workshops can be streamed but that won't matter much for ones outside of a dude presenting in his room; forums are much better mediums for discussing specific technical stuff than streams, especially for archival. Stream replies generally aren't logged or are hard to discern in a stream while looking in a series of forum posts is much easier for most people. Q&A streams have the most potential, but holding people's attention would require having a good personality or interesting subject matter to discuss.

EDIT: Also, NicoNico is a solid streaming service. Glad it just got opened up to the west. I have no idea how to actually use it but I'd be surprised if there isn't some way to configure XSplit for Nico streaming.

Last edited by Fatal Labyrinth (Dec 19, 2012 4:25 am)

cheapshot
Offline
Tokyo, Japan
AndrewKilpatrick wrote:

I'm not opposed to the idea, I just feel the existence of the vast majority don't make a whole lot of sense. The whole point of 'seeing' someone live is the atmosphere it creates and the ability to directly interact with the music. At a webshow, someone with a line-in playing songs off a gameboy and fiddling with a keyboard seems no different than just listening to the recorded version, except the audio quality is worse.
Also tl;dr most of this thread; guys need to learn to stop with the tautology.

Mate, you've been tautological yourself! Essentially what people do at a webshow and what they do at a "live" show (does this mean webshows are not live? (I know what you mean really, just being facetious)) is exactly the same. Ergo -- there is no point in arguing for one or the other.

You clearly have ways to interact with the DJ/performer at a webshow (via live chatboxes) as you do at a live event (heckling).

Last edited by cheapshot (Dec 19, 2012 5:14 am)

Glenntai
Offline
Hudson, MA

The idea of workshops is entertaining to someone such as myself who has more of an audible, hands-on learning approach partially thanks to a massive battle with ADHD that keeps me from focusing on reading manuals unless I'm absolutely invested in it (also inb4 that argument...  it's not a crutch, it's just an obstacle you just keep having to tackle, and I've done pretty damn well so far.)  However, youtube is a great place for tutorials because it's already a saved recording and can be re-wound and viewed as often as necessary.  All in all, the idea of a workshop is cool, but we'd have to see how the crowd would be likely to react to one being streamed live.

As for the argue that nobody's going to watch someone sitting there pressing buttons...  I feel a lot of people go for the music first and then the performance aspect second.  While both important, one has a larger priority than the other.   I think streaming can still provide audible, visual and social entertainment and interaction without having to worry about buying ear plugs, age restrictions, or travel costs for both the artists and audience.

That being said, I would never dream of ever replacing live shows.  While knowing the concept of chiptune existed, the Boston 8-Bit Chip Concert at Pax East 2009(10?) was what honestly got me to jump on board, start making music and get involved.  I owe way too much to the  idea of live, physical concerts to ever even consider getting rid of them or dare thinking, "Oh, irl chip shows are on their way out."  I know some people that want to replace live shows with web shows (whom shall remain nameless unless they personally come forward.)  I refuse to see things that way.

Call it naive and unrealistic, but I would much rather a symbiotic relationship with as many people in the community over a competitive one.  Hell, it actually bothers me to the point I nearly wrote an apology letter to whomever runs 8static because we have to be the same weekend as them for two months in a row.  I only want to add to everything being awesome, not take away or compete.

Having multiple people in one stream does indeed help the chemistry and flow of a show, but let's not forget the classic Let's Plays from Deceased Crab, now.  wink  Once again, while we can encourage all kinds of acts and ideas, we really are at the mercy of whomever is streaming.  Perhaps after MAGFest we should sit down and come up with a collective guideline on how to not do a lackluster show, be it a physical venue or a web show?

Yes, this is a new and dare I even say experimental concept to our scene, but with anything new and experimental, I hope you all can give our show a shot and that you guys can give us the same kind of amazing feedback on ideas and problems that you've been giving to us so far.  To those still wondering, yes, there is a chat that the artists and audience share with each other, although sometimes it's hard for the artists to check it out mid-performance.

What's funny is that the moment I heard someone was talking about streaming and mentioned Clipstream here, my first reaction was wondering how terrible we were going to be picked apart and pissed on for being a terrible idea.  Thank you all for being incredibly rational and logical on this topic, your support, your criticisms and your suggestions.  I know I'll be checking back here as this keeps going and bringing up every post to the rest of the group that helps organize every Clipstream (whom seem to have been checking back often, as it is.)

Edited for punctuation.

Last edited by Glenntai (Dec 19, 2012 6:32 am)

boaconstructor
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Seattle, WA US

We are essentially invalidating ourselves as performers, being that every stream is for free.

ant1
Offline
uhajdafdfdfa

doing things for free = invalidating yourself as an artist ?

extreme zan-zan-zawa-veia
Offline

hey the internet pretending to bring everyone closer together ruined my life

Subway Sonicbeat
Offline
Brazil

I dunno how you invalidate your act by doing a free stream. Are we invalidating ourselves as artists releasing stuff for free?

You guys seriously think that streaming is a stupid thing? WTF is wrong with you, guys?

boaconstructor
Offline
Seattle, WA US

I said performers, not artists. While I know they're different, streaming kinda makes it so there is no need for fans of chip to go out and pay to see some artists who they normally would.

That and it just comes off as unprofessional.. sitting at your desk by yourself playing jams that should be making bitches get dirty and shit

Catf1sh
Offline
my mom's basement

I personally like streaming, its a good way to hear live music without the commute to shows. However, I don't even compare the two. It's a totally different experience, and both are enjoyable for different reasons. Of course I'd prefer a live concert, nothing beats jumping up and down like an idiot surrounded by a bunch of other sweaty people jumping up and down like idiots, but if there's a good stream, you can just about guarantee I'll be watching.

chunter
Offline
Brunswick, GA USA
boaconstructor wrote:

I said performers, not artists. While I know they're different, streaming kinda makes it so there is no need for fans of chip to go out and pay to see some artists who they normally would.

That and it just comes off as unprofessional.. sitting at your desk by yourself playing jams that should be making bitches get dirty and shit

I disagree with this- watching concerts on DVD or television or YouTube should make the viewer want to attend, because of that missing social connection. Having said, there isn't much difference between watching something that's been post-edited and something that is literally broadcast live, besides level of quality vs. the potential for a tiny bit of interaction.

boaconstructor
Offline
Seattle, WA US

live concert dvds don't consist of some dude sitting at his desk. going hard during a webshow just looks silly.. I speak from experience... cuz I done that

boomlinde
Offline
Sweden
boaconstructor wrote:

I said performers, not artists. While I know they're different, streaming kinda makes it so there is no need for fans of chip to go out and pay to see some artists who they normally would.

Maybe this point would make more sense if you had some concrete examples, but now, really? What's next, will apples impose on the popularity of oranges?

boaconstructor wrote:

That and it just comes off as unprofessional.. sitting at your desk by yourself playing jams that should be making bitches get dirty and shit

Unprofessional? My profession involves sitting at a desk by myself smile

My stance on video streaming shows is sure, go ahead. If done right it might be a nice way to enjoy music. Mostly I feel like I'd rather spend my time doing something else, and the fact that it's live streamed doesn't make it more interesting to me than pre-recorded videos.